Lorain/Elyria, OH
Prosecutors seek to jail Smith and Allen
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ELYRIA — Prosecutors on Monday asked a state appeals court to send Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen back to prison and to overturn a county judge’s order that acquitted them of the controversial child molestation charges they were convicted of 15 years ago.
Smith
Lorain County Common Pleas Judge James Burge didn’t have the authority to acquit Allen and Smith or to even consider doing so, Assistant County Prosecutor Billie Jo Belcher wrote in court documents filed Monday with the 9th District Court of Appeals.
But attorneys for Smith and Allen argue that because Burge has acquitted their clients, they can’t be returned to prison. An acquittal, the attorneys argue, is final.
Belcher wrote that isn’t true in the Head Start case because Burge didn’t follow the law.
“The state cannot challenge validly entered acquittals,” she wrote. “However, (the state) appeals the unlawful procedure used in this case — not the facts of the verdict or acquittal. This case has no validly entered acquittal.”
Smith was accused during the trial of taking 4- and 5-year-old children on her Head Start bus route to Allen’s Lorain home, where they said they were sexually abused. Smith and Allen have always maintained their innocence and insist they didn’t know each other before they were charged.
Allen
Burge agreed to hold new sentencing hearings for the pair because of a technical flaw in the sentencing entries completed by his predecessor, retired Judge Lynett McGough.
McGough, Burge found, failed to mention in the entries that Allen and Smith had been convicted by a jury, something required by Ohio law. Without that language, Burge contended, the entry was void.
Belcher wrote that the problem could have been corrected with new sentencing entries. There was no need — and Burge didn’t have the authority — to hold new sentencing hearings.
Smith was serving a 30-to-90-year prison sentence, while Allen was serving five consecutive life prison terms when Burge ordered them brought back to Lorain County and freed them on bond.
Burge later acquitted the pair — saying he had no confidence in the guilty verdicts — after reviewing the evidence in the case, including taped interviews of the child victims that he called highly suggestive.
Prosecutors were given permission to appeal Burge’s decision, “except to the extent (prosecutors) challenges the ‘final verdict.’ ”
Burge and Smith’s and Allen’s attorneys contend that means that even if the appeals court rules that Burge made an error, Smith and Allen would remain free. Prosecutors argue that if Burge’s decision is overturned, Smith and Allen should be locked up again.
Contact Brad Dicken at 329-7147 or bdicken@chroniclet.com.
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This is absolutely vindictive and malicious. YOU were the ones who put Nancy in Prison..and you know who you are! You HAD the audasity to congratulate A.B. when you saw her at work.YOU played your head games with the daughter. You suggest your heart to heart conversations with those who wish to keep Nancy in prison. There is a place for you. You have runined so many lives. Let it go already. I am disgusted with our Justice system, and whats seems to be corrupt.
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I agree, Poet! Re-dang-diculous! And a horrific waste of money!
Something else, too, that I find interesting, is that there doesn’t seem to be a large public outcry for PUTTING THESE TWO back in prison. No one seems to think that their release was some great miscarraige of justice. It may be selective memory, but I don’t remember any NEGATIVE postings in any of the previous CT article’s threads that people wer upset about how this was handled by Burge, or that the shouldn’t have been freed.
Most everything I read was support for the two that were obviously railroaded by a megalomaniac prosecuter who was hell bent on getting a conviction when none of the real evidence supported it. The fact that he had to coerce statements from KIDS, or from the parents THROUGH the kids (which from what I read never matched up with OTHER kids stories), was horrible. Judge Burge was able to see this and step in to ‘fix’ what had ovbiously gotten ‘broken’.
Now if the Prosecuter’s Office would stop wasting time and resources just trying to get the egg off their face (even though it was a previous regime in power then) and move on with some real busness…
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This administrations is just as bad as the last in corruption, you cannot have the one party system controling from the arresting police afficers up to the Judges it is a diffinite guilty if the defendent doesn’t have the resources to fight for his innocents. Same goes for Appeals.
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I believe that this attempt is to keep anything about the case away from public ears. Not so much to put them behind bars, but rather, as to keep the truth about the case quiet. It starts with the Head of the LPD, on to the Prosecutors. As i have stated.how many “heart to heart conversations are being shared. A warm a cozy fire side chat..do this for me, and I will do this for you..great idea as long as no one knows you are doing it…Unless of course, someone heard you say it.
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Greg White, Jonathan Rosenbaum & Dennis Will ARE/WERE NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE or FORM “megalomaniac prosecutors”.
Something probaly went wrong as my posting in the Clarnece Weaver article may/”may not” show
Peter Potamus says:
December 2, 2009 at 10:31 am
Normally, I’d respond that:
1) I’d like to see what evidence was suppressed and not allowed to be admitted into the trial proceedings… that gives a far cleare picture of wwhat occurred.
2) One has to assume the system behaved correctly and the :burden of proof” rests on those who say an innocent person was wrongly convicted.
Unfortunately, Judge James Burge
felt otherwise in the Smith/Allen case as well as the Clarence Weaver case.
If one watches the CT video of the “calendar call” hearing where Burge surprised everyone by overturning the verdict of Smith/Allen… one sees that Burge jumped from one “technicality” to another “technicality” to another “technicality”.
Burge made sure that the record of the proceedings reflected his rationale including what are considered “supporting points & authorities” citing the “case law” precedent & “controlling opinions” for whatever conclusion/decision he was offering/making. He was extremely “meticulous” and put forth as “well-measured” and “well-considered” rationale as could be made.
In short, Burge looke at everything he could look at, including the videotaped evidence of the children.
Burge also would have had to have questions about the drastic change in the nature/character of the testimony when it was proven Joseph Smith wasn’t holding the hand of one of the alleged victims near the school bus boarding area…
… all of a sudden, at the 11th hour, after it had been established that a key supporting element was incorrect… the alleged victim’s caregivers CHANGES…
… well , right there ONE HAS A BIG PROBLEM — children cannot be aggressively cross-examined BUT HERE was a change in a “key point” which needed challenging to effectively protect the rights of Smith/Allen. I mean if the testimony is unreliable on that point.
McGough could have EASILY found the justification to conduct this portion of the trial in her office in a more comfortable setting for the children to testify with the jurors watching on video feed
Then there is the charge by the Prosecution that the mileage records were altered by the Head Start staff without any supporting documentation… Fudge records in one place - your MOST OFTEN going to slip up in another place. The best of Police Science would have gone into an analysis of those records - the prosecution came up empty but offered up that a bunch of 10th grade educated people were now super-forgers
Smith and Allen must have been 10th-grade edcuated geniuses themselves to have no phone records or any other documentation linking them for the length of time this occurred. I don’t like using this as a “supporting point” but Burge would have had to think to himself how “poor white trash” and “uneducated black scrabble” could have conspired together MORE EFFECTIVELY than anything Professor Moriarty used to cover his tracks before Sherlock Holmes.
Then there’s Allen’s neighbors/landlord never seeing Smith… then there is the DRASTICALLY incorrect description of the dwelling where the attacks took place… Neither Allen nor Smith could afford out-of-pocket expenses to fund a second dwelling.
Then there is the fact that in around 15 years of driving and roaming around Lorain County NOT ONE KID yelled out while driving in the car with their parents, “Look Daddy/Mommy… there is the house where it all happened!”
Then there is the one child who has now recanted and stated that nothing that was alleged ever occurred.
Most troubling though was that the Lorain Police Officer assigned to investigate, Tom Cantu, examined everything and all the allegations and said, “these people aren’t guilty of anything”… Even after Smith/Allen were charged, Officer Cantu had serious reservations about the quality of the evidence/testimony of the accusers.
Then the other thing is that Nancy Smith was asked by the Police/Prosecution to submit to polygraph testing.
Hold on a minute!!!… You got LPD Officer cantu telling his superiors that there is no merit to the charges… If you TRULY GOT SOME “rock solid evidence” to bring charges against Smith/Allen - the last thing in the world that you have them do is submit to polygraph testing.
Guess what?… Smith passes the polygraph with “flying colors”… the polygraph that the police/prosecutors asked her to take.
Passing a polygraph with “flying colors” IS NOT an indice of “how honest” a person is… it INSTEAD is an “indice” of how susceptible Smith’s “human physiology” is to the polygraph.
If Smith had been “deceptive” she would have FAILED the polygraph with “flying colors”. Smith’s physiology places her in what comprises an extremely small subset of the human population whose physical makeup is extremely well-attuned to the biometric data measured by the polygraph… Again, If Smith went out and robbed a bank, her physiology is such that the polygraph would convict her… If Smith was FALSELY ACCUSED of robbing a bank, the polygraph would surely exonerate her before the detectives.
Smith’s attorney should have demanded a stipulation prior to the exam that the prosecution would not object to the results being admitted as evidence at the trial.
So… with NO EVIDENCE because “poor white trash” and “uneducated black scrabble” MORPHING INTO “super criminals” who became “super criminals” able to cover their trail brilliantly… and the Head Start mileage records
supporting Smith’s accounts of her whereabouts…and with Lorain Police Department Investigator, Tom Cantu saying the accusations were “meritless”…
…the Police/ Prosecution & Parole Board are NOW FACED with having to deal with polygraph results showing NO DECEPTION from a person whose physiology would CONVICT HER ABSOLUTELY if she indeed attempted to practice deception…
So what do the police, prosecution & parole board do to ease their own discomfort?
They start “talking in code” to themselves and to each other… Nancy Smith and those polygraph results she passed???…”ohhh…she’s in DENIAL about what occurred”
Judge Burge — seeing no evidence, no credible accusations –and let’s be honest about it (in the back of his mind he knew the polygraph results OF THAT PHYSIOLOGICAL NATURE exonerated her) — well Judge Burge realized it was the POLICE who were “in denial”…
…it was the PROSECUTION who was “in denial….
.. it was the PAROLE BOARD who was “in denial”.
…and at EVERY Parole Hearing, Nancy Smith stuck to the story she had told from Day One… The prosecution ON THE OTHER HAND was on their third theory about how the crime occurred.
As long as Nancy Smith refused to change the story she had told from Day One and which was backed up by a police-administered polygraph… there was going to be NO SUCCESSFUL application for parole.
James Burge is extremely intelligent and along with Gerald Smith and Kenneth Lieux was probably one of the top defense attorneys in Lorain County.
If you watch that Chronicle Telegram YouTube video of him overturning the conviction… you’ll realize just how hamstrunghe was by the judicial process (particulary the appellate process where Judge’s are required to assume that the Trial Court of original jurisdiction had the best opportuniy to make the correct decision).
With that as a backdrop… Burge knew he was the last chance (”intellectually”/”cognitively” as well as “administratively”) to free someone he felt was truly innocent and with him having studied the entire body of evidence/testimony used to convict…then…
… Judge James Burge’s stringing “technicality” after “technicality” after “technicality” was the product of some “heavy duty” thinking/ciphering and served AS MUCH of an indictment of the conduct/”cognitive ability” of Judge Lynette McGough as it served as an indictment of the system that may have wrongly sent Smith to jail for nearly 15 years.
…and if Judge James Burge went out of his way to write a letter to the Parole Board on behalf of Clarence Weaver… he definitely has MORE THAN JUST an inkling that something was wrong with the conviction.
The Kenneth Richey case out of Putnam County not only shows how bad the prosecution and Ohio Crime Lab can screw up… instead it ILLUMINATED the fact that they were keeping on “death row” someone they knew was “innocent” because the Prosecution was now awre that no crime occurred.
Kenneth Richey was never in any danger of being executed, but ther are a whole lot of people who let him sit there on “death row” in solitary confinement 23 hours-a-day for an extra 7 years AS OPPOSED TO admitting they had convicted the wrong guy…
…and the Parole Board went along with the charade in “lock step” with the Putnam County “prosecution”
Finally the U.S. Sixth Circuit decided they had had enough of the antics of the State of Ohio…. so in their SECOND OVERTURNING of the “denial for a new trial” the Justices on the U.S. Sixth started “talking in code” themselves and fired a warning shot at the Ohio Attorney General and Putnam County.
Just what was the “code” they started talking to the State of Ohio… they used the word “demolish”… ohhh, they could have used it in their first demand for a new trial - but attorneys tend to let attorneys “off the hook”.
In the second overturning, the Justices on the U.S. Sixth were furious that KennethRichey had spent all those extra years on ‘death row” locked up in “isolation” for 23 hours-a-day… so they stated that any capable “defense counsel” could have “demolished” the State of Ohio’s case against Richey.
Judge James Burge …contrary to public opinion” is NOT AN ACTIVIST JUDGE attempting to “legislate from the bench”… The U.S. Sixth Circuit is stating the same thing when they start using LOADED TERMS like ‘demolish” because the birdbrains in the judicial/penal/parole process ignore their INITIAL warnings/admonitions.
That’s correct… the instant that the U.S. Sixth starts echoing the same concerns and subsequently starts throwing aroun LOADED TERMS like “demolish” it IMMEDIATELY takes Judge James Burge’s conduct
out of the realm of “activist judge attempting to legislate from the bench”
Judge James Burge swore an “oath” to “uphold the Constitution of the State of Ohio” which by extension includes the U.S Constitution -since the State can give MORE RIGHTS to its citizens but are disallowed from stripping away any federally-granted rights”
Police Officers and elected officials swore the same oath.
That oath to defend the Constitution CAN LEGITIMATELY BE TRIGGERED when any of these judges/officials/”police officers” feels they have sufficient predicate to believe that the normal judicial/prosecutorial mechanisms are incapable of bring criminals so “in control” of government that the normal judicial/prosecutorial mechanisms are incapable of bringing them to justice (”martial law”)
There is indeed that conference of “ultimate authority” by society when we have Police Officers and Judges swear those oaths
…regardless, Burge swore that oath… it takes a mighty big FUBAR for it to be triggered… the US Sixth was able to correct that FUBAR without feeling their oaths had to be triggered - even though a piece of alcoholic “white trash” spent nearly 20 years on “death row” for what turned out to be a “drunk & disorderly” misdemeanor.
I hope James Burge never determines that sufficient predicate exists which makes him feel his oath to defend the Constitution of Ohio has been triggered…
…but his stringing together in a patchwork fashion “technicality” upon “technicality” to spring people who served 15 years for a crime that may have never occured was brilliant.
I can’t be certain… but Burge did cite all the case law and controlling opinions which allowed/empowered him to behave the way he did… I think his ruling will survive the appellate process.
Nancy Smith owes God a great big thanks for giving her a physiological makeup so attuned to the mechanisms of “polygraph testing”…
…and also thanks to someone like James Burge for not “buying into the code talkers” and who actually spent what had to be EASILY OVER 200 hours reviewing the evidence and then hitting the lawbooks himself to ferret out “technicalities” to spring someone he felt was innocent.
Dennis J. Cavanaugh says:
December 1, 2009 at 3:08 pm
“The Lorain County residents have a rightful concern concerning the prosecutions of several past people who are presently in prison and also. the two people who were wrongfully convicted of ‘child molestations’ in the early 1990’s. The over-zealousness of the prosecutors, with our tacit permission, should finally be deemed as questionable at the best, and criminal at the worst. It is sad that the number of successful proscutions by a prosecutor is often considered as positives on the records of the prosecutors, which in Lotain County’s too many cases, has been achieved at the expense of the truth and of true justice..”
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The upshot of what CIA Director, William E Colby said…
… as well as NSA Director and later Deputy Director of the CIA, Admiral Bobby Ray Unman said…
…as CIA Director, Richard Helms said
…as JFK said to the editors of the nation’s major newspapers at The Waldorf Astoria
..as Attorney General (Home Secretary), Secretary of State (Foreign Secretary) and Speaker of the House of Representatives (Speaker of the House of Commons) Jack Straw said AS LATE AS 1997…
..”one party control” would be no than “two-party” or “multi party” control.
There is a “shadow government” that has had us pretending we live in a democaracy.
It’s NOT ME who said it… it was those WORLD LEADERS themselves who said it.
Hard to label anyone a “conspiracy nut” when respected figures from history are copping to it as the man says in the opening to the YouTube video
Go to YouTube..
Type “conspiracy quotes” in the YouTube search box
Not only did JFK, Richard Helms, William Colby, Admiral Bobby Ray Inman & Jack Straw “say” or “imply” these things about a “shadow government”
Look at what the other World leaders have said… and that extends right down to the local level.
Hitler
Shah of Iran
Sadaam Hussein
Osama Bin Laden
…all placed in power by the bankers and armes manufactures that the US Senate Committee of Charles Nye called “merchants of death”
Again… it’s NOT ME who states these things… it is WORLD LEADERS themselves
Inyouwetrusted says:
December 2, 2009 at 8:03 am
“This administrations is just as bad as the last in corruption, you cannot have the one party system controling from the arresting police afficers up to the Judges it is a diffinite guilty if the defendent doesn’t have the resources to fight for his innocents. Same goes for Appeals.”
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@Peter…
Good post (even if a little long). But I can’t tell if you agreed with me or disagreed. You said, “Greg White, Jonathan Rosenbaum & Dennis Will ARE/WERE NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE or FORM “megalomaniac prosecutors”.”
But from their actions around this case (and many others that have been brought up in the forums over time), I would have to say that they fit the definition of “megalomania” pretty much to a tee. They aren’t concerned about ‘truth’ or ‘justice’, only in gaining power, fame, popularity, and wealth. And they didn’t care what means by which or whose rights they trampled in gaining it.
You were right in saying that the ability to afford a better defense attorney for either Smith or Allen could have made all the difference in the world. But as you post elludes, this should never have gone that far. The Prosecuter’s Office ignored the recomendations of the investigating officer (Tom Cantu who was then ‘promoted’ off the case after making his recommendation, and replaced with a new Detective not at all familiar with the case), then badgered little kids into making false statement by putting words in their mouths during repeated questioning sessions. They even went as far as possibly intimidating a ‘witness’ into testifying against Smith and Allen (Emily Oliphant, who had been arrested just prior for using illegal painkillers. After the Allen/Smith trial, the dentist who wrote Oilphant the illegan Rx was arested, but somehow Oliphant came away clean…)
So if it walks like a duck…
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Peter, you’re wrong. Dennis Will is a proven vendictive prosecutor. He has, many times, thrown county $$$ away to prosecute low value cases, petty crimes, wasting money, etc. Most recently, he spent, I believe $10,000 to pay for the transportation and security to return a prisoner, who was serving 2 life sentences, to Elyria, to be prosecuted for another crime here. Why? Because he’s a total control freak, power hungry, and has no clue about cost vs. benefits. I’ve criticized Stammitti’s policies for wasting thousands of taxpayer $$$. Will’s policies are just as bad.
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@Hanzo…
Yes. Another pointless prosecution. The idiot in question is already serving 2 life sentences + an additional 19 years. But I guess we have to prove how tough on crime we are here in Lorain County in hitting this dummy with another 4 years for an attempted escape…
But rather than just choosing not to prosecute (they do have that option, right?), I’m sure it was seen as a slam-dunk, easy win, and a fast way to add another tick-mark in his WIN column. Hey, it wasn’t going to cost HIM anything, right?
The only good thing to come out of tthis was that the guy actually pleaded guilty (well, duh?) and they didn’t have to haul his 3 murder convict ‘witnesses’ up here, too.
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Dennis Will is not a vindictive prosecutoer.
Jonathan Rosenbaum and Greg White are not vindictive either.
I’m one of Prosecutor Rosenbaum’s staunchest supporters.
The simplicity of his prosecutorial style is what made him “ohio prosecutor of the year”… throw out all the weaker pieces of evidence and only present to the jury the strongest 2 or 3 pieces of evidence needed to gain a conviction
..after Rosenbaum explained this strategy to me.. i’ve successfully used it more than a dozen times myself with 100% success rate.
Let’s apply Rosenbaum’s own standard to the Nacy Smith case
NANCY SMITH CASE
First of all…the lead investigator in the case, Lorain Police Officer, Tom Cantu has her take a polygraph.
1) Nancy Smith is asked to take a polygraph by the Police who will prosecute her
2) Nancy Smith agrees
3) Nancy Smith passes the police-administered polygraph with a SCORE that causes the polygrapher to state to Cantu WITH SUCH POSITIVE AFFIRMATION that she could not have done what she was suspected of
4) Furthermore, the lead police investigator CAN’T EVEN ESTABLISH the “peripheral”, much less “central” elements of the supposed case/crime
Okayyyy… we all know that in the absence of two-party stipulation, polygraphs are not admissable in a criminal court.
They can be used at the judge’s discretion in civil trials & administrative law hearings
Now let’s go to the science of polygraphy…. a score of + 25 is NOT a measure of one’s honesty…it is a measure of one’s PHYSIOLOGY—- one’s ORGANIC SUSCEPTIBILITY to the exam procedure itself… a person who scores +25 for being truthful(absence of deception) would score around -25….
A score of -6 to +6 is considered “inconclusive”… a score from that individual shows that his/her physiology is NOT susceptible to the examination methods
The allowance of Angel Powell’s testimony in court is QUITE TROUBLING when a videotape shows she sticks her fingers in her ears during a police interview & sings, “la la la” because she does not want to answer police questions
If there is ever a case that screams out for “reverse discovery”, this is it
This is as bad as the Putnam County, OH case of death-row inmate, Kenneth Richey, who was just freed from prison….Richey ALSO REFUSED TO ADMIT GUILT at parole hearings for a crime that never occurred
1) No physical evidence
2) No medical evidence
3) Lead Lorain Police Investiagtor, Tom Cantu, doesn’t buy into allegations & his investigations turn up nothing(same results for the crackerjack task force that is later assembled)
4) Forget the children’s story changing, THE STORY OF THEIR PARENT’S KEEP CHANGING, or is shown by police videotape to be embellished/incorrect
5) Nancy Smith’s physiological susceptibility to the polygraph is overwhelming…and in this case–shows no deception
6) Appellate Attorney does not file timely appeal
7) Nancy Smith REFUSES TO ADMIT GUILT before the parole board for a crime that never occurred
The Head Start documentation supports her completely(odometer readings, etc)
9)In the investigation’s MIDSTREAM…a supposed “victim” suddenly becomes a “linkage” witness WHEN IT IS ESTABLISHED by extant documentation the child was not even on Nancy Smith’s bus route….
…for crying out loud, folks…. something like that STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN!!!
10)…but let’s get back to that UNBELIEVABLY HIGH +++ POLYGRAPH SCORE…that should have removed her from suspicion right from the get-go…. and called into question whether a crime had even been committed in the first place
One of the kidswho is NOW GROWN UP has recanted and stated that neither Smith nor Allen did not do the deed.
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The allowance of Angel Powell’s testimony in court is QUITE TROUBLING when a videotape shows she sticks her fingers in her ears during a police interview & sings, “la la la” because she does not want to answer police questions
Forget the children’s story changing, THE STORY OF THEIR PARENT’S KEEP CHANGING, or is shown by police videotape to be embellished/incorrect
In the investigation’s MIDSTREAM…a supposed “victim” suddenly becomes a “linkage” witness WHEN IT IS ESTABLISHED by extant documentation the child was not even on Nancy Smith’s bus route….
…for crying out loud, folks…. something like that STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN!!!
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peter… i remember reading that post you have up when we were talking about Rosenbaum when he got shot, and I started the conversation about Nancy. I remember you posted under the name of Hal..i tried to find you, since you had some great facts…anyhow, here we meet again. When this is all over, there will be a great story told. I hope the names will not be changed as to protect the guilty.
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I am just in shock that PP is actually posting something that sounds half way sane.
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SEND THESE CHILD MOLESTERS BACK TO PRISON NOW
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FROM THE MOURNING JOURNAL COVEAGE of this story…
TomCat wrote:
” I spoke to Rosenbaum also and he said that in his polygraph test the police Bureau of Criminal Investigation gave, she showed she had 2 personalities.”
Whooooaaa!
I mean there is a limit to what a Bureau of Criminal Investigator can do with a polygraph exam unless Dr Philip Resnick somehow also got himself certified as an APA polygrapher.
Then there is the McNaughton rule… is “multiple personality disorder” even recognized by the courts/”medical community”?
If so, to what extent did Smith’s defect affect her capacity to appreciate the nature of the charges against her or to be able to materially assist in her defense? Should she have even been brought to trial?
What did the BCI Investigator then tell Rosenbaum about whether she passed and what her score was for each personality?
You left that out, TomCat… What were the BCI administered polygraph results?
Did the BCI guy suggest Smith may have had two perosnalities becasue Smith indeed did pass?
Also, the polygraph score is what is in question. When one gets a score as high as she did( did it surpass the “two standard deviation” threshold?… did it even surpass the “three standard deviation” threshold?).
You know..this isn’t something where someone pops just right in-and-out for a polygraph quickie… if a polygrapher and defense attorney have their client pass a polygraph…they document the interview procedure and subsequent formation of the questions asked (both the “object” questions and “subject” questions).
With that high of a positive score, the documentation which showed how the polygraph was conducted should exist in such a state that it would satisfy any trained, APA-certified polygrapher.
Now on to the videotape/audiotape
On the AUDIO tape then… what did Rosenbaum tell you about Angel Powell singing “la la la” while being questioned AND WHERE IN YOUR PRIOR post did you cite what Rosenbaum told you.
Rosenbaum’s not stupid… he would have asked about the “la la la” nature of the audiotaped interview… did the Police inform Rosenbaum that Angel Powell was refusing to answer questions and singing “la la la” while sticking her fingers in her ear?
If Rosenbaum did tell you that Angel Powell did indeed stick her fingers in her ear and sing “la la la” in orderr to evade answering Police questions, then why did you not relate that to the MJ readership?
You know, I remember once when Rosenbaum successfully quashed a motion because he quickly pointed out there were no “supporting points and authorities” cited.
I believe it was an appeals court THAT ALSO later denied one of Rosenbaum’s motions in the lawsuit against Paul Facinelli because Rosenbaum got busted attempting to employ the very same tactic THAT HE HIMSELF HAD destroyed before.
I mean you’re going to be quoted saying, “what do you expect from a defense attorney?”… well what do I expect from an attorney like Rosenabaum who attempts to an employ a tactic he himself annihilated before
Since I haven’t seen what evidence Judge Lynnette McGough suppressed in favor of the defense… I assume the case was handled properly.
But people make mistakes… there was even one Lorain county Death Row inmate whose appeal sat stagnant for more than 4 years because a Lorain County Prosecutor failed to file the necessary paperwork.
Greg White never mentioned the name of the Prosecutor who failed to file the correct paperwork.
It couldn’t have been Prosecutor Rosenbaum because one of the mantras he chants is, “Is ther something you can point to specifically that makes you think I’m not capable of doing my job?”
This is the age of the Internet.. Rosenbaum has refused comment up to this point… now he is ostensibly “commenting by proxy”.
Let him speak now in a Chronicle Telegram/ Morning Journal/Plain Dealer/WEOL YouTube video/interview with the “law student” from the Innocence Project as one of the questioners.
Rosenbaum can NOW post online the 3-page response/article that the Chronicle Telegram refused to print once Paul Facinelli ( who is a “total idiot” himself) won the Women in Journalism award.
So to recap TomCat
1) What did the BCI guy state about the nature of the polygraph results( did Nancy Smith pass and by what score?…what percentage of the population does Nancy Smith’s physiology place her in as it applies to the efficacy of polygraph techniques?)
2) What was her score on the defense-administered polygraph exam?
3) Do the results of the two examinations match and is so, to what extent by polygraph scoring?
4) Is it true, from both the AUDIO TAPE and confirmation by the Police Detective Interviewer that Angel Powell was refusing to answer Police questions by engaging in conduct where she stuck her “fingers in her ears and sang ‘la la la’ to avoid responding to the Detective?
5) if “yes” then why did you not reveal that to the readership in yourprior post.
CONSISTENCY
6) Did Nancy Smith or Joseph Allen change their stories?
7) How many times did the children change their stories?
9) Was one of the alleged victims not even on Nancy Smith’s bus route?
10) Will Jonathan Rosenbaum place online the article/response that the CT refused to publish when Paul Facinelli won the “Women in Journalism” award?
11) Will Jonathan Rosenbaum tell us what evidence Judge Lynette McGough allowed to be supressed in favor of the Smith/Allen defense?
12) Will Jonathan Rosenbaum join a local news media panel posted on YouTube where the Innocence Project law student can question him and Rosenbaum can question the law student?
13) Has one of the alleged victims who is now grown near to adulthood recanted his/her story and said that no sexual attack ever occurred?
Can we get that now grown-up child to talk on a YouTbe interview?
14) I think it would be a GREAT IDEA for all of the existing videotape/audiotape to be posted online… it could no longer be considered “predjudicial”
If no videotape facilities existed what in the way of audio or video exists in the “lineup” that was conducted by police?
This is GREAT… Jonathan Rosenbaum finally “breaks his silence” on the issues surrounding this case.
I’ll be certain to let the CT, MJ, PD and WEOL reporters/editors know.
The balance of the readership can also chime in and ask the MJ and CT to get answers to these questions AND IN PARTICULAR seek the production of any existing audio/video for posting on YouTube..
“Good” or “bad”… we should all be able to see what it was that was used to convict?
“Good” or “bad” we should all be able to know the answers to the 14 questions that I have posted above… email the MJ and CT and ask them to provide the answers through their “investigative reporters”
Judge James Burge did, after all, overturn this conviction… using that ALONE as a backdrop - the balance of the County has a right to know the answers to the 14 questions above… and has a right to SEE for themselves.
..but THERE IS EVEN MORE…the Chronicle Telegram article was what set in motion the involvement of the Innocence Project in a case where no DNA was involved ( a true rarity for the Innocence Project) and Judge James Burge validated for the people of Loarin County the skepticism contained in that CT article.
It is incumbent NOW MORE THAN EVER for the CT, MJ, PD and WEOL to aggressively inform their constituents about the state of Loarin County Justice System.
( remember… the NEWS MEDIA does have a “constituency” if the News Media is truly called “the fourth estate”)
a) the first part would be informational…describe an arrest and booking
b) describe the interrogation and police lineup
c) what causes some cases to be bound over to trail by a “preliminary hearing”?… why do other cases get bound over to trial by a “grand jury”
d) why is the “grand jury” system under attack and being considered for abolition in certain jurisdictions?
e) what occurs during pre-trial
f) describe the predicates used by defens attorneys to decide whether to be tried by a judge or go to a jury
g) describe the jury selection process
h) the general public has no idea what the “appellate system” is all about… it does not decide innocence/guilt… it decides if the defendant received a fair trial
i) does Hererra vs Collins truly state that a conviction can stand (even a “death penalty” conviction) if new evidence surfaces showing a wrongful conviction?
THE MJ and CT should then move from the “general” to the “specific”
What about Smith and Allen?
What about Clarence Weaver?
TomCat wrote on Dec 2, 2009 6:20 PM:
The test that her attorney gave showed she passed.(what do you exspect the attorney paid for that test)Rosenbaum also laughed when someone said they had Angel Powell videotaped in a interview. He said back then LPD had no such type of epuipment other then a voice tape recorder. Oh my what people say that do not have any idea what the TRUTH is. “
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CB: I have to agree. I made it almost half way through PP’s post before my A.D.D. kicked in. Ralph, I’m with you . The “Honorable” Judge Burge will regret turning loose convicts and allowing softer sentences, because he does not believe in capitol punishment and doesn’t respect the jury vierdict.
Just like Gov. Huckabee is regreting turning loose a convict that has ruined several lives.
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Well actaully ,poet… what is NEEDED now is a unique approach that doesn’t require the expense of finnces that neither Smith nor Allen possess.
Nancy Smith’s and Joseph Allen’s supporters need to “cut and paste” this material and e-mail it to CT manging editor, Julie Wallace as well as the Morning Journal editorial staff AS WELL AS WEOL
What exists in the way of both “video” and “audio” can be posted to YouTube.
It could no longer be considered predjudicial.
Since Judge James Burge has already overturned the convictions… we have a right to affirm/disconfirm an issue for ourselves that the appellate courts won’t even be considering; to wit,
“Did a crime ever truly occur at all?”
That’s correct… the “appeals court only affirms if their was a fair trial”
Well now… one of the kids came forward and said “no sexual attack occurred”.
I’d normally be reticent to honor such a request, but Burge did indeed overturn the conviction… we have a right to consider for ourselves WHAT THE APPEALS COURT won’t be dealing with.
I don’t see why the Prosecution would object unless they felt they had something to hide… I mean after all … it wasn’t Joseph Allen or Nancy Smith who kept changing their stories..
..the people who kept changing their stories were the parents of the accusers… that’s whyyyyyy
…we need to see everything in the way of audio/video that exists including a YouTube video with Lorain Police Officer Cantu who now is a Sheriff’s Deputy in Las Vegas.
At the top of this web page is a “Right Now” arrow
where you all can e-message Julie Wallace and the other CT reporters with what is contained AS A REQUEST in my posts… add a comment of your own.
The CT got the ball rolloing on this…
…which got the Innocence Project rolling in a rare decison to involve themselves in a case where no DNA could be examined
….which got James Burge rolling into spending over 200 hours of his own free time to review all the evidence and THEN hit the law books to see if he could find a way to overturn a conviction and have it survive appeal.
E-message all of tose reporters above… add your own comment to the cut and paste”… get them talking among themselves, their editors and managers.
…get them talking about how the “appeals court” is only going to decide if a “fair trial” occurred or if “burge ruled incorrectly”.
You want the CT to insist or sue for the release of the material to be posted on YouTube and to offer Jonathan Rosenbaum… who has now started to talk about the issue” to join in a two-way interview with the reporters and law student from the Innocence Project.
Be sure the CT reporters NOW KNOW that Jonathan Rosenbaum has started offering “comments by proxy” for “public consumption” on the Smith/Allen convictions… the CT reporters will JUMP FOR JOY now that they can question Prosecutor Rosenbaum
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Hal ?
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I support the convictions and have had confidence in the verdicts because I have not seen what evidence Lynette McGough suppressed in favor of the defense.
Unfortunately, Judge Burge overturned the conviction
1) Kenneth Richey spent 20 years on “Death Row” for a “drunk and disorderly” misdemeanor, David Allen Bolin…and the US Sixth chastized the Ohio AG and Putnam County prosecutors the second time around
2) David… is ther an audiotape of Angel Powell refusing to answer questions put to her by Police Detectives by singing “la la “la” and by Police Detectives witnessing for themselves Angle sticking her fingers in her ears while singing “la la la”?
3) David… was one of the alleged victims not even on Nancy Smith’s bus route?
4) David… you ostensibly are smart enough to ddebunk “conspiracy nuts”
This WHOLE CASE, in its entirety, unravels in favor of Smith/Allen if there was no doctoring of the Head Start School Bus mileage records.
It is the “weakest link in the chain”
No doctoring of records was ever proved, David; it was ONLY suggested… and all of a sudden we are asked to believe that “poor white trash” and “uneducated black scrabble” NOW CONSPIRED WITH Head Start officials to doctor the mileage records.
3) David… the police/prosecution would have scoured over those mileage records LOOKING FOR a “slip-up” if there truly was doctoring… they would have crossed referenced “mileage” against “purchased gasoline receipts”, etc.
Nope… nothing in the way of proving the doctoring of records.
So the prosecution just suggested it without proof… alleging a conspiracy without proof and when the subpoenaed records showed no doctoring.
Your answer to those 3 questions should suffice for starters
David Andrew Bolin says:
December 2, 2009 at 9:49 pm
“CB: I have to agree. I made it almost half way through PP’s post before my A.D.D. kicked in. Ralph, I’m with you . The “Honorable” Judge Burge will regret turning loose convicts and allowing softer sentences, because he does not believe in capitol punishment and doesn’t respect the jury vierdict.
Just like Gov. Huckabee is regreting turning loose a convict that has ruined several lives.”
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Bill?
Is it really you, Bill? Praise the saints, Bill!
Bill..now that you’re here…would you make sure they bury me with my boots on?
Bill Wallace says:
December 2, 2009 at 10:20 pm
“Hal ?”
Another reason for all 4 people in my house to vote against Mayor Grace…. Peter Potamuthhh ithzz really Hal!
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HalBlotnick
Any reason you changed your screen name?
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Hal
I was getting around to that reason. You stole my thunder.
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Bill Wallace says:
December 2, 2009 at 10:33 pm
“HalBlotnick
Any reason you changed your screen name?”
Well… let’s see if we can figure this out together, buddy.
You JUST MAY be on to something here… Not unlike Hollywood Actor, Burt Ward smashing a clenched fist into an open palm and then pointing an accusing finger while barking out, “There’s only one place your going, Riddler!!! Up the river!”
Okay… enough “Batman and Robin”
1) When was the date of my Hal Blotnick postings(August 2008)?
2) Over what time period did they occur (2 days total)?
3) When did they begin and end?
Nowwww…
4) How long of a period of time elapsed before I posted again on the CT comments section regarding the $10 million?
Now you can figure out some possibilities.
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HalBlotnick says:
August 24, 2008 at 7:21 pm
I’m one of Prosecutor Rosenbaum’s staunchest supporters.
The simplicity of his prosecutorial style is what made him “ohio prosecutor of the year”… throw out all the weaker pieces of evidence and only present to the jury the strongest 2 or 3 pieces of evidence needed to gain a conviction
..after Rosenbaum explained this strategy to me.. i’ve successfully used it more than a dozen times myself with 100% success rate.
Let’s apply Rosenbaum’s own standard to the Nacy Smith case
NANCY SMITH CASE
First of all…the lead investigator in the case, Lorain Police Officer, Tom Cantu has her take a polygraph.
1) Nancy Smith is asked to take a polygraph by the Police who will prosecute her
2) Nancy Smith agrees
3) Nancy Smith passes the police-administered polygraph with a SCORE that causes the polygrapher to state to Cantu WITH SUCH POSITIVE AFFIRMATION that she could not have done what she was suspected of
4) Furthermore, the lead police investigator CAN’T EVEN ESTABLISH the “peripheral”, much less “central” elements of the supposed case/crime
Okayyyy… we all know that in the absence of two-party stipulation, polygraphs are not admissable in a criminal court.
They can be used at the judge’s discretion in civil trials & administrative law hearings
Now let’s go to the science of polygraphy…. a score of + 25 is NOT a measure of one’s honesty…it is a measure of one’s PHYSIOLOGY—- one’s ORGANIC SUSCEPTIBILITY to the exam procedure itself… a person who scores +25 for being truthful(absence of deception) would score around -25….
A score of -6 to +6 is considered “inconclusive”… a score from that individual shows that his/her physiology is NOT susceptible to the examination methods
The allowance of Angel Powell’s testimony in court is QUITE TROUBLING when a videotape shows she sticks her fingers in her ears during a police interview & sings, “la la la” because she does not want to answer police questions
If there is ever a case that screams out for “reverse discovery”, this is it
This is as bad as the Putnam County, OH case of death-row inmate, Kenneth Richey, who was just freed from prison….Richey ALSO REFUSED TO ADMIT GUILT at parole hearings for a crime that never occurred
1) No physical evidence
2) No medical evidence
3) Lead Lorain Police Investiagtor, Tom Cantu, doesn’t buy into allegations & his investigations turn up nothing(same results for the crackerjack task force that is later assembled)
4) Forget the children’s story changing, THE STORY OF THEIR PARENT’S KEEP CHANGING, or is shown by police videotape to be embellished/incorrect
5) Nancy Smith’s physiological susceptibility to the polygraph is overwhelming…and in this case–shows no deception
6) Appellate Attorney does not file timely appeal
7) Nancy Smith REFUSES TO ADMIT GUILT before the parole board for a crime that never occurred
The Head Start documentation supports her completely(odometer readings, etc)
9)In the investigation’s MIDSTREAM…a supposed “victim” suddenly becomes a “linkage” witness WHEN IT IS ESTABLISHED by extant documentation the child was not even on Nancy Smith’s bus route….
…for crying out loud, folks…. something like that STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN!!!
10)…but let’s get back to that UNBELIEVABLY HIGH +++ POLYGRAPH SCORE…that should have removed her from suspicion right from the get-go…. and called into question whether a crime had even been committed in the first place
Saying that “what goes around, comes around” in regards to Prosecutor Rosenbaum’s misfortune demonstratively establishes THAT AS WELL AS BEING UNDERSERVED by the law enforcement, judicial & criminal defense apparatuses….
…she is also UNDERSERVED by some who claim to be her supporters.
I’m no attorney…but I’ll find a a lawful, peaceful way to get her sprung from prison.
provide me an e-mail in this orum where her supporters can be reached.
a) no money is needed–which is good, since none of us has any
b) no more expense of effort is needed than what you are presently expending– you just need to channel it differently in a lawful fashion to achieve efficacy
….you know…the McMartin pre-school kids are all adults now & state that Raymond Buckey did do those deeds he was accused of.
Have any of these supposed victims in the Head Start Case recanted now that they’re older?
If you want to spend cash–then spend it on a Private Investigator to interview those now grown-up kids…they got to be close to adulthood.
Maybe one of those kids will spit the truth now that they’re grown
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Bill Wallace says:
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FROM THE MORNING JOURNAL “comments section” on the Smith/Allen Case attendant to Morning Journal article, titled:
“Appeal asks to overturn acquittal, put Head Start defendants back in prison”
TomCat wrote on Dec 3, 2009 7:23 AM:
” Dear Peter, what a shame Lorain County Transit is shuting down. How are you going to get to your appointments at the Nord Center. ”
Peter Potamus replied:
Thanks for the expressed concern, TomCat… I too was initially worried about being punctual for my Nord Center appointments RIGHT UP TO THE MOMENT where Big Bob (my invisible friend)graciously offered to drive me himself…
Now to return to your evasions:
1) Is it true.. from audiotape and the statements of Lorain Police Detectives that Angel Powell refused to answer Police questions by sticking her fingers in her ears and singing, “la la la”?
2) The BCI Investigator who told Rosenbaum that Smith had two personalities TOLD Rosenbaum that her polygraph score was what?
3)What was the polygraph score as performed by the defense polygrapher?
4) How close did the two scores match?
5)Is it true that one of the alleged victims was not even on Nacy Smith’s bus route?
6)One of the parents had been busted for drugs and snitched on her dealer… so this person couldn’t take responsibility for her own actions…
What was Nancy Smith’s criminal history up to that point?
Did anyone ever ask the accuser parent to take a polygraph?
I mean… are we going to find an absence of any criminal history on the part of someone who is so “emotionally troubled” that there has been a divergence of personnas( Multiple Personalit Disorder)?
..and yet A CRIMINAL RECORD for addictive drug use and snitching by the ACCUSER and once nancy Smith passes her polygraph… no one decides to polygraph this mother???
TomCat… I do not buy into the allegations that Jonathan Rosenbaum, Greg White, Dennis Will are “vindictive”
I do not buy into the allegations that Jonathan Rosenbaum badgered anyone into testifying to something that was not true.
..but I’d like to know what the answers to those questions are NOW THAT Burge has overturned the convictions…
..and Big Bob wants to know why you did not provide the answers to those questions in EITHER your ORIGINAL POSTING nor in your most recent REPLY
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PP I don,t get you. You point out weaknesses in the case, then also state you have confidence in the verdicts and confidence n Rosenbaum. What am I missing? Please get to your point and understanding all your arguments now, please be succinct. My only clue as to how to respond is that I,ve thought from the beginning these 2 are innocent. White and Rosenbaum , ok, I,ll grant you the they are not vidictive, sigh, but overzealous to the point of maybe criminal, what’s the difference? Are you aware of Whites involvment with an indicted DEA agent in Cleveland named Lee Lucas? Research this case on the Plain Dealer archives and as far as I am concerned White and Rosenbaum are reaping what they sowed. White was placed in hiding, figuretively speaking, as a federal magistrate to distance himself from this corrupt DEA agent even though he signed off on all the indictments which are now showing themselves to be based on lies etc. The bigger picture is that this case is a great microcosmic example of our failed Drug War of which I vehemently disagree. LEAP, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, research their site, and I,ll bet you have to agree with at least some of their premises and conclusions. My point here is that tactics used by the government in the Smith/Allen case are used routinely by ‘drug warriors” to supposedly save us from drug abuse, however, the constitution is out the door because of the same overzealousness manifested by prosecutors in this Smith/Allen case. Please be succint in your response about the Smith/Allen case, what is your point in 1 sentence? As far as LEAP, you may find it interesting whether you agree or disagree.
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FROM THE MORNING JOURNAL “comments section” on the Smith/Allen Case attendant to Morning Journal article, titled:
“Appeal asks to overturn acquittal, put Head Start defendants back in prison”
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TomCat wrote on Dec 3, 2009 12:31 PM:
” Hey Peter,I thought your friend is So So, not Big Bob. That was a great cartoon. I loved it when Peter sneezed and So So hung on to the baloon. Good Memo’s ”
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Peter Potamus replied:
Not the most encouraging news, TomCat… but once again, thanks for the expressed concern.
So-so is currently in the “electroshock therapy” unit zonked out on double doses of thorazine.
So-so keeps on mumbling with a glassy-eyed countenance to both Big Bob and the Day Ward Psychiatric Staff that you are going to persist in your evasions but I’ll try once more:
1) Is it true.. from audiotape and the statements of Lorain Police Detectives that Angel Powell refused to answer Police questions by sticking her fingers in her ears and singing, “la la la”?
2) The BCI Investigator who told Rosenbaum that Smith had two personalities TOLD Rosenbaum that her polygraph score was what?
3)What was the polygraph score as performed by the defense polygrapher?
4) How close did the two scores match?
5)Is it true that one of the alleged victims was not even on Nacy Smith’s bus route?
6)One of the parents had been busted for drugs and snitched on her dealer… so this person couldn’t take responsibility for her own actions…
What was Nancy Smith’s criminal history up to that point?
Did anyone ever ask the accuser parent to take a polygraph?
I mean… are we going to find an absence of any criminal history on the part of someone who is so “emotionally troubled” that there has been a divergence of personnas( Multiple Personalit Disorder)?
..and yet A CRIMINAL RECORD for addictive drug use and snitching by the ACCUSER and once nancy Smith passes her polygraph… no one decides to polygraph this mother??? “
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Found Gulity by a Jury of their perrs.
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Correction: Peers.
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(@-@) i see my tin foil hat has kept petey potamos posting ponderous posts -
regardless - these people have been put through emotional hell, in jail, out of jail, maybe back to jail, maybe not. but i do think it is a vindictive move to keep after them like this.
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and they did serve time
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and no i am not condoning their behavior in any way shape or form.
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Big M. I don’t think they served enough time. But I respect you opnion.
Hey I did hear that Armadillo shell helments work good for blocking those pesky government rays. Might want to let PP Know. Talk to you later.
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@D.A.B…
You sound pretty adamant about their guilt and that they should be returned to jail. Why is that? What additional knowledge do you possess other than the guilty verdict that was subsiquently tossed by Judge Burge?
Just wondering…
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ER71. I dont have any additional knowledge. Actually I was living in TN. when this happened. I only respect the verdict by the jury. If it was incorrect then the court of appeals would have overturned the verdict. I just don’t think it’s 1 persons place to make these decisions. Gulity or not? I don’t know?????
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CIA Director William E Colby
LAPD Police Sergeant, Michael Ruppert
Special Agent in Charge of both the Memphis and LA FBI Field Offices, Ted Gunderson
CIA Operative, Chip Tatum
San Jose Mercury News Reporter, Gary Webb
2 of these people were brutally tortured and murdered.(Colby and Tatum)
Gary Webb ..cough… committed suicide…. oh his wife did say he was depressed but only problem is he shot himself twice… unlikely for a suicide… Coroner stated that there were cases where people had shot themselves twice when committing suicide so he ruled it a suicide.
Well , it was 1983 when Department of Agriculture Agent, Henry Marshall’s death was changed from “suicide” to “murder”… he shot himself 5 times… no pictures of the crime scene… no fingerprints
The military-industrial complex that Eisenhower 3 times warned us about was dealing cocaine in Omaha and Los Angeles and other North American cities.
The Crips and Bloods are now today allies against the Mexican Gangs…. but at the time of the allegations they were bitter enemies all across America except in sleepy old Omaha, Nebraska’
The CIA was behind their good friendship because they were distributing South American cocaine through Noriega and others via Mena, Arkansas…. Democrat and Republican… Conservative and Liberal… George Bush Sr. was handing out orders to Bill Clinton who obeyed those orders.
It’s not me who stated these things… it was people who would have been in a position to know (CIA Director.. SAC of the Los Angles FBI… LAPD Police Sergeant, Michael Ruppert stated he was approached/recruited by the CIA to participate in this trafficking
CIA Director, William E Colby told Senator Frank Church in testimony before the US Senate Committee that everyone of any significance in the News Media is wholly owned by the CIA.
This story was not hard to figure out… it stinks on the surface and when you begin scratching beneath the surface the odor becomes even more foul.
This is why it is hilarious to see the people on this forum think that a change to a Republican Mayor will make any difference… there was no difference between Bush and Clinton in drug running and Hillary(Secretary of State) is even worse.
So we are totally misled by the News Media and multiple sessions of the US Congress for over 40 years have been corrupt.
Just as the Nazis were portrayed as pretty swell guys prior to WWII by the news and entertainment media… the same improved techniques are used to get us all to “drink the Kool -Aid”
James Traficant was a corrupt Sheriff… and that was why he was permitted to become a corrupt Congressman…
…but it was only when he began talking about Demnjajnuk and the covered up murder of 30+ US Servicemen by rogue elements within the CIA that he was prosecuted for such corruption.
Ditto with Greg White… like Traficant he may have taken a stand against his masters and paid the price… but we’re not going to get the straight story about much if anything by the Plain Dealer.
When Traficant talked about the rogue CIA agents orchestrating the murder of 30+ US Servicemen on the House Floor… there wasn’t a peep about it in the Plain Dealer or the local TV stations…
..not even to call Traficant a crackpot - the reason why it was not reported by the local TV stations was because the CIA Director when the murders occurred was still alive and telling any who asked that indeed it was murder… so were the heads of America’s other Defense Agencies.
You can’t have the Directors and Deputy Directors of America’s Intelligence Agencies all appearing on local TV and saying that Traficant was telling the truth and was no crackpot.
That’s why you didn’t hear a peep about it - not even to call Traficant a crackpot.
But it did result in Traficant going to prison for corruption… he had to be removed.
Sadaam Hussein was an “ally” but was doing as much torture before and after he became an enemy. His real crime then?
He was going to quit trading oil in dollars.
So one has to be reticent about what one reads in the News Media unless it is self-condemning( like the tobacco industry’s own medical studies showing nicotine was addictive and that they were crossbreeding a strain of tobacco known as Y1 to keep Americans hooked on cigarettes).
I certainly have some serious questions about White’s involvement with the DEA Agent… for one thing this guy just had TOO MANY easy busts… way too many easy busts…. that should have served as a “red flag” right there.
But there are still “law enforcement” colleagues standing behind this supposedly rogue agent. If there is one last bastion of integrity in America, I would hope it would be in the Bar Association where attorneys can say to their fellow attorneys… “hey… my client got railroaded and Greg White is SUPPORTING the guy who is doing the railroading”
I’m not agnostic about Greg White’s conduct… I’m leaning towards the idea that something went wrong and Greg White realizing that decided to cut the rogue agent some slack ONLY TO HAVE IT SURFACE LATER ON that there was even more misconduct by this guy that no one even knew about or could possibly imagine.
White then would have rightfully paid the price for his misconduct and for backing a bad apple.
But that’s only an opinion at the moment… what I do know of Greg White is that he won this nation’s Silver Star in Viet Nam… he raised a couple of kids who avoided trouble with the law.
Jonathan Rosenbaum hasn’t been so fortunate with his son, Aaron… but Aaron’s bad behavior is “iatrogenically induced”… Still, the kid knows afterward that what he was doing was wrong - because he alibis his way out of it… even his Dad is recorded on a cell phone tape saying his son is a “f-ing liar”
I don’t believe Jonathan Rosenbaum’s memory failed as to what occurred when his son shot him… I think if Jonathan Rosenbaum sent a girl to prison for four months because her brother was riding n the hood of her car over speed bumps in a trailer park that Jonathan Rosenbaum should have spit the truth about what happened that afternoon he was shot in the back.
That is Jonathan Rosenbaum’s failing in my opinion AS I FEEL about what may have been Greg White’s failings.
But I don’t feel any of them vindictively pursued a prosecution against Smith/Allen… Neither did Judge James Burge in overturning the conviction… at the very opening of the Chronicle Telegram YouTube video of the overturned decision, Burge states publicly that the State of Ohio was well represented by Jonathan Rosenbaum… Burge stated that as a defense attorney HE NEVER TURNED DOWN a favorable court ruling on behalf of his client AND THAT SITTING from the chair of a Monday Morning Quarterback, Burge was therefore not going to condemn Jonathan Rosenbaum for turning down favorable court rulings by Judge Lynette McGough on behalf of Rosenbaum’s client (The State of Ohio).
“falsum in uno; falsum in toto”… you don’t like Burge’s preamble to the overturned decision, then you have to question his logic/rationale through the balance of the ruling - including the overturned decision.
There’s no sick “cult of personality” for any of the parties involved here.
James Burge behaved dishonestly in getting himself on that three-judge death penalty panel… “Double Jeopardy” prevents me from telling just what he did that was “dishonest” since it would set a brutal murderer free.
The fact that Jonathan Rosenbaum probably lied about his memory loss IS JUXTAPOSED against the “penny ante” cases where he sent a20-something kid to prison for “involuntary manslaughter” for letting her brother ride on the hood of her car over speed bumps.
Greg White quite possibly covered up what he thought was a limited “course of bad conduct” by a rogue DEA Agent only later to find out that this guy had been engaged in wholesale criminal perjury.
But I don’t believe Jonathan Rosenbaum bullied anyone into offering testimony that that person did not believe was truthful in the Smith/Allen case…
..nor do I believe there was even one shred of vindictiveness by Dennis Will, Greg White or Jonathan Rosenbaum.
The reason that I still support the conduct of Rosenbaum, Will and White in the conviction of Smith/Allen is SOLELY BECAUSE I am not aware of what evidence Judge Lynette McGough refused to allow the prosecution to present by suppressing it.
The reason that I support the overturned conviction by Judge James Burge is that Burge would not allow himself to get “snookered” by a specious “double personality” explanation of extremely troubling polygraph results DEMONSTRATIVELY ESTABLISHING to any trained, APA-certified Polygrapher who ever lived that Nancy Smith was not engaging in any deception.
Judge James Burge took a look at those polygraph results and decided he was the last best hope to prevent people who may have been innocent from serving even one day more than the 15 years they had already spent in prison for a crime that may have never occurred..
So Burge spent over 200 hours of his free time (5 work weeks of 40 hous) pouring over all the evidence AND THEN HE hit the law books to try to string toether a “legal rationale” which would allow his overturning of the conviction to stand on appeal.
I believe Burge would not have risked further heartbreak to the Smith/Allen familes/supporters if he didn’t honestly feel his ruling would not survive appeal.
That is why I personally feel Burge’s decision WILL INDEED survive the appellate process… he beat the Lorain prosecutor’s Office once already on him being allowed to decide the constitutionality of the three-drug cocktail protocol used in death-penalty executions.
jz says:
December 3, 2009 at 12:43 pm
“PP I don,t get you. You point out weaknesses in the case, then also state you have confidence in the verdicts and confidence n Rosenbaum. What am I missing? Please get to your point and understanding all your arguments now, please be succinct. My only clue as to how to respond is that I,ve thought from the beginning these 2 are innocent. White and Rosenbaum , ok, I,ll grant you the they are not vidictive, sigh, but overzealous to the point of maybe criminal, what’s the difference? Are you aware of Whites involvment with an indicted DEA agent in Cleveland named Lee Lucas? Research this case on the Plain Dealer archives and as far as I am concerned White and Rosenbaum are reaping what they sowed. White was placed in hiding, figuretively speaking, as a federal magistrate to distance himself from this corrupt DEA agent even though he signed off on all the indictments which are now showing themselves to be based on lies etc. The bigger picture is that this case is a great microcosmic example of our failed Drug War of which I vehemently disagree. LEAP, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, research their site, and I,ll bet you have to agree with at least some of their premises and conclusions. My point here is that tactics used by the government in the Smith/Allen case are used routinely by ‘drug warriors” to supposedly save us from drug abuse, however, the constitution is out the door because of the same overzealousness manifested by prosecutors in this Smith/Allen case. Please be succint in your response about the Smith/Allen case, what is your point in 1 sentence? As far as LEAP, you may find it interesting whether you agree or disagree.”
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Swing and a miss, David Bolin
The appellate courts SOLE DUTY is to determine if there were any defects in the original proceedings.
Hererra vs Collins states that a wrongful conviction based on newly-discovered evidence can stand as long as the defendant received a fair trial.\.
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Now back to the three questions that you have evaded once before in this very thread…
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If you have SUCH GREAT CONFIDENCE in these convictions that you feel you’re smarter than a trained judge with access to all of the presented evidence…
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….then David, you should have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM answering the questions that you have ALREADY FLED FROM once before; to wit,
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Judge Burge overturned the conviction
1) Kenneth Richey spent 20 years on “Death Row” for a “drunk and disorderly” misdemeanor, David Allen Bolin…and the US Sixth chastized the Ohio AG and Putnam County prosecutors the second time around
2) David… is ther an audiotape of Angel Powell refusing to answer questions put to her by Police Detectives by singing “la la “la” and by Police Detectives witnessing for themselves Angle sticking her fingers in her ears while singing “la la la”?
3) David… was one of the alleged victims not even on Nancy Smith’s bus route?
4) David… you ostensibly are smart enough to ddebunk “conspiracy nuts”
This WHOLE CASE, in its entirety, unravels in favor of Smith/Allen if there was no doctoring of the Head Start School Bus mileage records.
It is the “weakest link in the chain”
No doctoring of records was ever proved, David; it was ONLY suggested… and all of a sudden we are asked to believe that “poor white trash” and “uneducated black scrabble” NOW CONSPIRED WITH Head Start officials to doctor the mileage records.
3) David… the police/prosecution would have scoured over those mileage records LOOKING FOR a “slip-up” if there truly was doctoring… they would have crossed referenced “mileage” against “purchased gasoline receipts”, etc.
Nope… nothing in the way of proving the doctoring of records.
So the prosecution just suggested it without proof… alleging a conspiracy without proof and when the subpoenaed records showed no doctoring.
Your answer to those 3 questions should suffice for starters
David Andrew Bolin says:
December 3, 2009 at 2:14 pm
“ER71. I dont have any additional knowledge. Actually I was living in TN. when this happened. I only respect the verdict by the jury. If it was incorrect then the court of appeals would have overturned the verdict. I just don’t think it’s 1 persons place to make these decisions. Gulity or not? I don’t know????? “
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….then David, you should have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM answering the questions that you have ALREADY FLED FROM once before; to wit,
I have yet to see the question you are asking.
WOW. I never thought expressing my opion, would cause such out rage . Did you throw in the David Allen Bolin thing for a reason. I thought that was impressive. It’s not me or any one that I know of. Please ask me your questions and I will try to answer them if I can.
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PETER. please call me Andy in the future, I never got use to the David name while I was growing up. The parents called me by my middle name. It’s a southern thang.
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Andy aka David Andrew Bolin,
So the person who is fleeing from answering questions after thinking he was so clever now tries/attempts to manipulate the thinking of the readership by using the word, “rage”
Come oon Carlo, you don’t think a trick like that would fool a Corleone, do you?
I’ll ask the questions one-at-a-time”
1) Was one of the alleged victims not even on Nancy Smith’s bus route?
David Andrew Bolin says:
December 3, 2009 at 5:15 pm
“….then David, you should have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM answering the questions that you have ALREADY FLED FROM once before; to wit,
I have yet to see the question you are asking.
WOW. I never thought expressing my opion, would cause such out rage . Did you throw in the David Allen Bolin thing for a reason. I thought that was impressive. It’s not me or any one that I know of. Please ask me your questions and I will try to answer them if I can.”
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Your thoughts on the Greg White /DEA case may be plausible, however, his record out here in Lorain County along with Rosenbaums tenure lean me in the direction of once again a win at all costs mentality. Zeal is one of the deadly sins and some prosecutors lose sight of things in their zeal. With Rosenbaum I always saw him as a ’something wrong with that boy” kinda thing. You know, the picked on in school not very popular kid who gets power as an adult and “gets back” at everyone. Lets not forget many many unsavory criminal types need to be and deserve to be prosecuted according to the law. Somebody has to do it and it is not a popularity contest being a prosecutor. It’s just that he was so obviously mean spirited, and yes vindictive that a person just loses sight of how to reign in the authority and power they have.
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I disagree…. If Jonathan Rosenbaum, Dennis Will or Greg White were in possession of exculpatory evidence.. they would immediately turn it over to the defense.
I also don’t see Rosenbaum fitting the model of “picked-on school kid” set upon “evening the score”
You know, just as I objected to Rosenbaum’s suggestion regarding the doctoring of mileage records… I’d also object to the public offering of “unsubstantiated feeling/opinion” of yours.
Let’s not forget… let’s none of us ever forget… the proximal cause of Republican Jonathan Rosenbaum’s demise in the Republican Lorain County Prosecutor’s Office was his insistence that uber-Republican bigwig, Bucky Kopf serve time in prison just like that girl who spent 4 months in prison for allowing her killed brother to ride on the hood of her car over speed bumps in a trailer park.
Jonathan Rosenbaum threw EVERYTHING AWAY career-wise to ensure equal application of the law. Bucky Kopf wanted it reduced to a misdemeanor so he could still serve on the Board of Directors of a near-west side bank.
When Avon Lake Mayor Vince Urbin escaped conviction on the most serious charges, everything within the Republican Party collapsed on Jonathan Rosenbaum attempting to get him to cave in.
The people of Mahoning County… one of the nation’s most corrupt were glad he was assigned to the case and glad he stood up against the apllication of “local rules” in favor of the Ohio Rules of Evidence…again, it was Republicans on Ohio’s Supreme Court who sacked him.
I don’t agree that his conduct, nor White’s nor anyone else’s is above scrutiny… I don’t believe that he lost his memory of the events surrounding his son’s shooting of him…
…but he did stand up to the real decision makers and power within his own party to ensure equal application of the law…
..for good or for bad… he knew aforehand that by doing so it would probably cost him his career.
jz says:
December 3, 2009 at 9:04 pm
“Your thoughts on the Greg White /DEA case may be plausible, however, his record out here in Lorain County along with Rosenbaums tenure lean me in the direction of once again a win at all costs mentality. Zeal is one of the deadly sins and some prosecutors lose sight of things in their zeal. With Rosenbaum I always saw him as a ’something wrong with that boy” kinda thing. You know, the picked on in school not very popular kid who gets power as an adult and “gets back” at everyone. Lets not forget many many unsavory criminal types need to be and deserve to be prosecuted according to the law. Somebody has to do it and it is not a popularity contest being a prosecutor. It’s just that he was so obviously mean spirited, and yes vindictive that a person just loses sight of how to reign in the authority and power they have”.
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I don,t see how you could come to the conclusion my opinion/feelings are unsubstantiated. How do you know what dealings and contact I have or have not had with Mr. Rosenbaum? You don,t. But you conclude that my feelings and opinion are unsubstantiated. So here we go. I,ve had enough dealings and personal experience seeing Rosenbaum perform his job as a prosecutor to come to my conclusion that he was very mean spirited and seemed to fit the ‘type” I described above. Equal application of the law? Perhaps. Overzealous? No doubt. Too much of an axe to grind. Zeal is good to a point but, it can go too far and he manifested that to the point he seemed to lose his humanity, was extremely arrogant, and down right scary with the amount of power he wielded.
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Okay… well I saw something very different than you. In Jonathan Rosenbaum, I saw an extremely capable and compassionate individual who walked a path in life dedicated to public service
… and who got drilled by the people in his own political party when he attempted to make sure that the political party that talks about having “values voters” is actually a reflection of what they themselves maintain they are.
let’s get to work attempting to get the video and audio evidence on YouTube… Nancy Smith’s best chance is Burge’s ingenuity
Her next best chance is us…. if you truly believe that I’m possessed of sufficient cognitive wherewithal, then believe me — the YouTube uploaded audio/video evidence will be hugely accessed by Loarin County Residents once they have access to it.
That’ll put the kabosh on any future attempts to trow her back in prison.
Get Police Investigator Tom Cantu to be part of that video also..
If the newspapers point out that the Head Start Documentation is now on YouTube video, I GUARANTEE YOU that everyone with Internet Access in Lorain County ill immediately put down their newspapers and head to their home computers.
If Dennis Will objects you then have Burge overturning the conviction withthe Loarin County Prosecutor’s Office looking like they have something to hide…
…you can’t afford to have the media spotlight dim until the appeals court rules… you need to keep supplying “administrative kindling wood” to keep the embers burning on this
The more often Dennis Will refuses, then thhe more often Nancy Smith’s case stays in the public eye…. and if the Lorain County Prosecutor’s Office truly DOES have something tohide…that would be the last thing they’d want.
jz says:
December 3, 2009 at 10:10 pm
“I don,t see how you could come to the conclusion my opinion/feelings are unsubstantiated. How do you know what dealings and contact I have or have not had with Mr. Rosenbaum? You don,t. But you conclude that my feelings and opinion are unsubstantiated. So here we go. I,ve had enough dealings and personal experience seeing Rosenbaum perform his job as a prosecutor to come to my conclusion that he was very mean spirited and seemed to fit the ‘type” I described above. Equal application of the law? Perhaps. Overzealous? No doubt. Too much of an axe to grind. Zeal is good to a point but, it can go too far and he manifested that to the point he seemed to lose his humanity, was extremely arrogant, and down right scary with the amount of power he wielded. “
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Rosenbaum was an egotistical prosecutor - he was once caught saying to an officer - DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM???? - attempts at intimidation were prevalent. Petey petey petey - here we go again - I am so aorry that i have entered your cerebral cortex and have gained control of your thoughts — what’s that? of course - please continue posting those preposterous ponderous posts!
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