October 25, 2014

Elyria
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UPDATED: Three men arrested, charged with murder

Jeris Geiger

Jeris Geiger

Andre Jackson

Andre Jackson

ELYRIA — Three men were arrested and charged with murder Wednesday in connection with the shooting Sunday morning that left an Elyria man and father of two dead in his car.

Jeris Geiger, 21, of Grafton Street in Oberlin, and Andre A. Jackson, 19, of Middle Avenue in Elyria, were charged with murder Wednesday at a Maple Heights home. Jordan L. Williams, 25, of West River Road South in Elyria, was charged with murder for the same incident an hour later at a house in Cleveland. Williams was also charged with possession of drugs, drug abuse instruments and cocaine.

Police say the three are to blame for the death of Antonio Spraggins, 22, of Elyria.

Jordan Williams

Jordan Williams

Spraggins, who was seen playing pool at T&A Bar about 11 p.m. Saturday, was found shot to death in his car at the intersection of Foster and Lake avenues at 2:15 a.m. Sunday. Bullet holes were found in the driver’s side of his car. Spraggins was declared dead at the scene.

An autopsy later determined Spraggins died from a gunshot wound to the torso.

Although police are not releasing a motive in the case, the four men knew each other, according to Elyria police Capt. Chris Costantino.

Spraggins, a 2010 graduate of Elyria High School, had a 5-year-old son and 3-year-old daughter.

Geiger and Jackson were being held at Lorain County Jail on a $1 million bond each. Williams was being held in Lorain County Jail on a $1.5 million bond.

All three have a hearing at 1 p.m. Monday in Elyria Municipal Court.

Contact Anna Merriman at 329-7245 or amerriman@chroniclet.com. Follow her on Twitter at @AnnaLMerriman.


  • John Demirjian

    Goes to say, it was black-on-black crime and did not involve anyone else of any other race.

    • Shelanzo Washington

      ??

    • T.A.

      Racist

    • ibethepappy

      d***head

    • DeAndre Yancey

      I think that’s obvious why even mention it?

  • formerlorainresident

    They are just misunderstood. A victim of a society that has long since cared about the under-class.

    I suppose the next article will have a series of quotes from their families citing what wonderful people these mean are. Loving fathers, great to be around, always smiling and laughing.

    Please do not criticize these men, after all it is your fault they ended up this way. Society, including you, abandoned them and left them no choice but to commit these acts.

    Please accept my apologies, you three cold-blooded killers, since I am really the one at fault. You are simply a victim of a society which gave up on you.

    • formerlorainresident

      Sorry for “typos”.

      “long since stopped caring”
      “wonderful men, not wonderful mean”

    • copperbill

      What horse pooh. Everyone has a choice how there life is or where it goes.It is a choice of right or wrong, legal or illegal,steal or earn.With all the liberals in power odds are these animals were raised by society with society’s money, housing food and opportunities to do better things with their lives and it weakened them as men and they became parasites on government when it was family and personal goals that let them down no incentive to work or do what is right, all handed to them.Personal responsibility for our actions needs a revival not blame or excuses..

      • formerlorainresident

        My comments were full of sarcasm and were tongue-in-cheek.

        These men should be hung in the square in downtown Elyria if found guilty.

      • Tommy Peel

        This is the most moronic post I have read since I have been reading this blog. Yes it is the liberals fault. Do you really know how these men were raised?

        • Larry Crnobrnja

          I will bet you dollars to donuts they weren’t raised in a conservative household.

          • Tommy Peel

            It doesn’t matter their political affiliation. A person is dead!

          • Paris Adams

            I’m convinced your an idiot

          • Larry Crnobrnja

            If you are going to call someone an idiot, you need to understand the difference between you’re and your.

          • buck

            No Paris, YOU’RE an idiot.

          • brenda

            How much do you want to put on that bet after you take your foot out of your mouth. I know all but answer1 of thm and they all had beautiful caring and loving homes. How were you raised.

          • Larry Crnobrnja

            I don’t believe you know the meaning of “conservative household”.

          • brenda

            Please do tell.

      • datfigga

        so if the party of guns everywhere were in office then what? What are your views on corporate welfare? If you looked at breaks some of your tea party brotheren enjoy?

        • formerlorainresident

          Can’t remember the last time three recipients of corporate welfare gunned down another in cold blood.

          • formerlorainresident

            Here we go again. The blame lies squarely on others. What does the Tea Party or corporate welfare have to do with any of this?

          • datfigga

            Blame. All you’re doing is spewing obama this obama that. you have not once responded with a solution to anything.

          • Zen Grouch

            That cuz, “he kill them wi’ their love. Wi’ their love fo’ each other. That’s how it is, every day, all over the world.”

          • datfigga

            you’re right they just cause suicide by taking peoples life savings.

          • White Man

            You don’t have to receive welfare to gun down someone.
            These white kids come from suburban neighborhoods,
            and they still commit mass murders!

    • Bob Sweatt

      Dude I love it. You (and I mean this as a compliment) the most polite A**hole I have ever seen.

    • Dawn W

      I’m sorry, but there is always a choice. Is it harder for some? Sure, but others who grew up in the same type of environment were able to overcome it by making different choices…and no it is not my fault. It is time for people to take responsibility for their own actions. As I tell my children, when you stop blaming someone else for your actions and take responsibility, THAT is when you become an adult.

      • Bob Sweatt

        His post was clearly sarcasm. But I do agree with you point about taking responsibility for your own actions.

        But that is today’s society. To Blame others, that way you can do whatever you want.

    • brenda

      I dnt understand when you say that society gave up on them. It’s not up to the society to make men out of boys . Its up to them to decide rather or not they want to make something of themselves and allow the community as a whole to help, not make them do anything. I know thr of the boy’s . In fact the victim is my cousin. I pray for all 4 of the families, because they are going to need it. But answer me this, what if anything could the SOCIETY do when they hang on the corners 4 to 5 in group, if not more then that? What would you do? Me, I’d tell them to get off the corner, and they would for awhile, or find another corner.

      • formerlorainresident

        Please reread the post. I was using sarcasm to make my point. I went to far as to clarify this in subsequent comments. It is about personal responsibility, but many feel society, and others, are always to blame.

  • GreatRedeemer

    This whole thing is a tragedy. The young man shot left two
    kids, 5 and 3 behind and these young men’s lives are in ruins.
    Is Geiger the same one that use to play for Oberlin a few years ago? What the heck has happened that brought this about?
    This absolute recklessness for human lie has to stop. Parents need to go home and hug their kids.

    This is also why nobody wants to come down to Elyria past 5:00 PM.

    • Mark B

      I bet the taxpayers have been supporting the 2 kids he left behind. Prolly never held a real job in his life

  • formerlorainresident

    From CT this summer:

    “The victim, Jeris Geiger, 20, of Oberlin, was taken to EMH Elyria Regional Medical Center with a gunshot wound to the finger.”

    Too bad he did not get hit in the head! Would have saved the taxpayers a lot of $, which we must now have to pay for the legal process and incarceration.

    • Bob Sweatt

      Was he one of the guys involved in the four person shooting in Oberlin?? The one were everyone was calling the white guy a racist for defending himself against four men??

      • fox20

        no he wasnt involved in that case i believe.

      • Jay

        no he had nothing to do with that

    • brenda

      Ok jeris was dead wrong but I’m not going to allow you to say something so uuuggghhhh because jeris happens to be apart of my family. He made a really, really bad decision but i still love him. So please dnt say such ignorant things. Live your perfect little life in your perfect little world.

      • formerlorainresident

        Based on his record, it appears he has made more than one “really, really bad decision.” He was shot earlier this summer!

        So is he “apart” of your family, of “a part of” your family? If he was “apart” of your family as you stated above, that implies he had nothing to do with you. Sometimes words do matter, contrary to what many may think here.

        And Jeris was not “dead wrong”, he was wrong, but the other guy is the one who is dead.

        • brenda

          He is very much a part of my family . And he didn’t exactly shoot himself in the hand. Like i said he has made some bad decisions and i still love him. That is if it’s ok with you. I’ve made some bad decisions a time or 2, maybe 3or more. But i turned my life around. I believe in not giving up on anyone if they truly want help, especially my family .

          • formerlorainresident

            Brenda,

            I will pray for him. I wish you well.

      • Deans Auto

        Its ms Bentley, Jeris was always respectful and nice when he stayed at my house. He seemed like a really good kid. I liked Jeris and I am so sorry he is in trouble. He was friends with Patrick and Dean. My boys. He always was glad to see me at basketball games, came up and hugged me. Im sorry, reading this that he was in trouble made me so sad. I said, please tell me its not true! ITS NOT A PERFECT WORLD…ITS NOT EASY BEING A BLACK, WHITE OR ANY OTHER KIND OF YOUNG PERSON IN THIS VIOLENT WORLD. It takes a minute for them to get in trouble and a lifetime to regret the trouble. I am very upset of course that someone died. But ALL of the kids or young adults and before you judge in your PERFECT WORLD it could be your son, then what would you SAY? oh, by the way, I am a WHITE woman. Ive just lived enough life, raised kids and also tried to HELP kids at risk and not to know that even GOOD people can have bad judgement, no insight and get with a bad crowd and mess up, sometimes killing themselves OR OTHERS. Its sad and its our society. Instead of judging commit yourself to the SOLUTION…which is being involved in your kids life and also their friends lives, but no matter how hard you try, things happen. And yes, I was a stay at home mom and a very good one, and my kids were not perfect and I kept on them…and tried to influence their friends! So instead of judging get out and volunteer at the boys and girls club, Help a kid at 11, 12, 13, 14….so some kids do OK, Use your heart and hands to help, not your mouth!!!! Just saying…FROM ONE WHO KNOWS…AND LIVED IT.

        • brenda

          Thank you. You said what i was trying to say. Thanking you for believing in Jeris and i can only ask that would you please continue to pray for Jeris and and my family .

          • ken

            parents also play a role in how kids are today

          • Deans Auto

            I will, please tell Jeris I am thinking of him and praying for him. I will pray for your family also. People get caught up in stuff. Sometimes its too complicated to explain. Also and I can tell you for a fact because of my kids, just because someone turns 18, it doesnt mean they are adults, and if they have ADHD, they take more time to mature. It is a very scary world out there for kids and young adults, people want to judge, except when it is their kid. I hope the people who are posting racist comments, can open their hearts a little. Go to the website the innocence project. There are people who have life sentences for being a young man and just being in the car with the wrong people. Now, Im not saying that killing someone is right, Im saying a moment out with the wrong people can cost you your life. Either wind up dead or in prison for life. If these judgemental people could remember back when they were kids and how they thought, maybe they wouldnt judge so harshly. Maturity takes time to develop. Its what I always told my kids, you dont have to be doing anything wrong, just be with the wrong people at the right time. I will keep praying!

  • formerlorainresident

    I think this sums it up:

    “We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” -Ronald Reagan

  • Mark B

    Where oh where is Art McCoy

    • Bob Sweatt

      LOL. If you say his name three times, he will appear.

    • HankKwah

      Careful. Before you know it, Sharpton and Jackson will be in Elyria, decrying how we’ve failed these three men, and how it must be a white man’s fault, and if someone had just stayed in their car, this never would’ve happened.

      Oh, wait!! This just in: It’s Bush’s fault.

      • White Man

        NO it cant be white man’s fault cause its definately not black man’s fault when those white kids shoot up schools, malls, and movies so your rite

    • formerlorainresident

      I thought the Browns traded McCoy? Oh you mean Art McKoy, the owner of the Superfly Barber Shop in Cleveland. I remember now, the location where they found about a pound of cocaine a couple of years ago. The McKoy who has been convicted of Grand Theft, Burglary, Perjury and other “minor” offenses in the past. He is the “real McKoy” alright.

      • Marita Below

        You are an idiot and need to find a hobby. You do not know anyone involved in this crime. So keep all of your ignorant comments to yourself.

  • John Demirjian

    We previously had the discussion that this crime was black-on-black crime and it seems that it plays out that way. Elyria Black population is potentially dangerous to itself and others.

    • White Man

      Every race is dangerous to each other nowadays you have to worry bout blacks killing other blacks (senseless) Whites taking guns to school killing innocent kids or whites going to malls or the movies just killing anyone in arms reach (very senseless)

      • Kelvin Gray

        So umm stupid off point question coming here, but how many black people have been arrested for mass murder crimes against other blacks? Where in you hear of Caucasian people doing it all the time. Killing their parents, employers, ex-wives of girlfriends and their whole families. Or walking into a mall or school and shooting up a whole bunch of innocent bystanders. Well that’s 1 race blacks aren’t winning. John stay out of the malls why don’t cha. It seems as if it’s safer for the blacks than you.

        Ok now let the thumbs down begin. :-)

        • Pablo Jones

          I guess if you shoot up the wrong house killing innocent people that isn’t considered a mass murder crime. I guess if it doesn’t occur in a school or mall it doesn’t happen to you. But innocents killed by black on black crime happens all the time and kills more people than the mass shooting crimes you refer too.

          No one is giving them a pass for shooting in schools, movies, malls, etc. so don’t use the white people kill people so it is ok for black people to kill people.

          • ZX3

            John Lee Malvo.

          • Kelvin Gray

            Well the DC sniper. And? Come on. Some more people. Oh that’s right there aren’t many more are there? :-) Gotcha!!! Everyone reading this knows exactly where I went to and where I’m at.

          • ZX3

            Wayne Williams.

          • Kelvin Gray

            So, that’s your best shot huh? Well let me try then, because I know for sure that you missed Alton Coleman & Debra Brown. They were black but you probably never ever heard of them. But let’s try Bonnie & Clyde since we want to go there. Then all the big Mafia bosses and all the hitman hinch men working for them. John Wayne Gacey, Son of Sam, Jim Jones, James Eagan Holmes, the Aurora, CO. shooter. Micheal Kenneth McLendon in Geneva, AL. Adam Lanza, Newton, CT. The guy down in Killeen, TX George Hennard. Or how about James Huberty? Remember him? I was a kid when he killed all those kids down in San Diego. 21 total people I do believe. Or how about that guy in the clock town at the University Of Texas? How many white people did he kill again. I bet it was more 3. Or even more than what Wayne Williams is accused of killing. Where did the term postal come from again? Oh yeah that’s right, that postal worker who killed all those people in the post office right? Then of course you have Eric & Dylan from Columbine. Back in ’09 you’ve got the guy who killed all those people in a nursing home in North Carolina. The guy in Milwaukee who shot and killed those people at the Sek Temple was white I do believe. Or the ex-marine out in LA that was killing all those homeless people last year. White I do believe. The 2 White guys who robbed the bank in Hollywood Hills, CA. Then had a shootout with police live on national television back in the ’90′s. I remember watching it live on TV. And since I lived down south let me not forget about the little boys in Jonesboro, AR. Mitchell Johnson & Andrew Golden. The 1st offical school shooting I do believe. I worked in Jonesboro, so they won’t let you forget that. I’ve given you about 14 or 15 to your HUGE number of 2. I even spotted you 2 more that you didn’t know about. And just for petes sake I’ve another 1. Around here we call it the Lester St. Massacre. 6 people killed by 1 man over an argument. Google that one. Even the guy in Indianapolis who killed a whole family over something stupid. So there now you 2 more. But NOW near how many white folks are killing.

            And oh yeah, Timothy McVay & the Uni Bomber. So you win.

          • ZX3

            Since you brought it up, I have come to find mass murder knows no color.
            I looked up, “black mass murderers”.
            There is a list of 57 to start.

          • Kelvin Gray

            Let me get my laugh out first. Secondly you mean to tell me that you can’t even fight your own verbal fight? You had to turn to the internet & Google? Showing your smarts there (or lack thereof). So that was your best? A list of 57 “black mass murder”. How about the 25 top mass murder crimes? I wonder how many black men as opposed to white men are on there. When no “color” is included you get some real interesting undisputable FACTS. I’m speaking from what I remember, not “internet” aided. But hey we all need back up.

          • ZX3

            Closer to home?
            Anthony Sowell.

          • Kelvin Gray

            Pablo Diablo. It’s like trying to compare an airplane catastrophe vs regular car accidents. Car accident are more on a daily basis then are plane crashes. But in a plane crash, well you know, everybody dies. So next time try to compare apples to apples and not try to get grape juice from oranges. But if you really want to get into it technically, then we can say that no matter what def is death. No matter who committed the crime. So it should not be looked more harshly upon coming from a black American as opposed to a white American.

          • Pablo Jones

            I wasn’t excusing anything it is all bad. But if you look at the statistics the black community commits more murder per racial capita then other groups. If you want to reduce crime and murder you go for the biggest problem.

          • Kelvin Gray

            What? Start locking up all the 25-35 year old middle class working white men? Because that’s your average mass murderer. Hence there’s your biggest problem.

          • Pablo Jones

            Death is Death and crime is crime, so lets target the ones that commit the crimes. Remove a smaller number of people in the black community and you reduce a larger percentage of the crime.

            Blacks make up about 13% of the US population but committed 38.2% of murders in 2010

            http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl03.xls

            Blacks make up 13% of the US population but committed 47% of the rapes in the country.

            When broken down by population 2.59 percent of the black population will commit rape vs. .76% of the white population

            http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl06.xls

            http://www.colorofcrime.com

            Crime Rates

            Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
            When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times
            more likely than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely
            to use a knife.
            Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white
            rate, and Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white
            rate.
            The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic.

            Interracial Crime

            Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every
            year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites
            commit 15 percent.
            Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against
            blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are
            black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime,
            only three percent of their victims are black.
            Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent
            crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to
            commit robbery.
            Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.

          • ken

            tell it like it is Pablo!

          • Kelvin Gray

            So after all the researching, which was a good deed on your part I might add, you conclusion is the blacks or more likely to commit a mass murder right? Except evidential facts have proven that to be incorrect. Because history has shown us that whites commit more mass murders than blacks. Especially when you’re talking about killing eight to ten or more. But I’ll let that be because you have embarrassed me. So I’ll sit here at my daughter’s private school tournament basketball game and stew about it. My be even later I’ll go take some people out. oh wait a minute, I don’t get frustrated like that and go shoot up a whole innocent group of people for no reason at all. Guess that makes me a non-white. :-)

          • It has to stop

            Curious on how you got anything remotely associated with mass murders on the information Pablo provided.

          • Kelvin Gray

            Is that all that you were curious about? If it is then nothing else really truly needs to be said.

          • It has to stop

            Just shows your reading comprehensive skills are lacking if what you garnered from Pablo’s post is blacks are more likely to commit a mass murder.

          • Kelvin Gray

            As I rise is this morning on, the Lords day, another beautiful day the Lord has afforded me I say to myself why. Why to a lot of things but to this I definitely have no answer.

            Broken down however you choose to do it (It Has To Stop), you’ll see how 1 comment lead to another, then another. Because 1 young man lost his life at the hands of 3 others. Then folks jumps on the fact that he was black and had a criminal record. Then on to the fact that he was an drug pusher. Next it’s all about black people this & that. So it’s time to go to the blame game of ALL black people. At the next intersection it happened to be about all the killings by black people. So now 3 days later we’re discussion all this. Now you tell me how in the Sam Houston Texas did 200 plus comments get to this when I’d say maybe only 30-40 had anything directly to do with the ORIGINAL ARTICLE? If that man sir. That’s what I wanna know.

          • Pablo Jones

            We got here because one person said this was black on black crime and that all races are dangerous, mostly to themselves. Blacks kill blacks, whites kill whites.

            You brought up the comparison of white mass murderers to black mass murderers and restated that if you want to end mass murder we need to focus on whites. Which brought up the discussion that the black population makes up 13% of the US population but commit 38% of the murder. Which means a black person is more likely to commit murder than any other race.

            So how did we get here? You brought up the comparison between murder by race.

            You didn’t need to ask the question you could have just read the posts above yours.

          • It has to stop

            I agree with you on that Kevin. To me crime is colorless. This thread has gotten way off track.

          • Pablo Jones

            http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/09/mass-shooters-race-aaron-alexis

            This has a breakdown of mass shootings by race of the shooter.

            Again about 73% of America is white and 13% is black. So if crime were evenly distributed the total crime numbers would be distributed evenly. Which means naturally you would have more crime committed by whites, since they are the majority of the population.

            But for mass murder they are the shooter only 66% of the time which is below their overall population percentage.

            For blacks they are at 17% which is above their population percentage. Which means a black person is more likely than a white person to commit mass murder.

          • jojo2

            the world can only hold so many people, we need mass murder! apparently whites are better at it.

          • Pablo Jones

            Apparently you aren’t familiar with the genocides occurring in Africa. Millions dead and starving. I’ll give you a hint, it isn’t the whites that are hacking people to pieces.

    • Kelvin Gray

      All 3 of these young were from Elyria? I missed that part the article. Must’ve been an updated that I didn’t catch.

  • DonMega

    These goofy looking retards need about sixty years just for looking so dumb.

  • Jason Parker

    Well this is sad im glad they found them lames but black people ant the only ones doing crimes its easy to judge when u on the outside looking in

  • Pablo Jones

    I see a hoodie, I bet he is the one that did it.

    • buck

      Where is Zimmerman when he is needed?

  • Tim Watson

    Let’s see more murders and burglaries yet our county commissioners decide to close a jail further limiting the polices ability to lock people up for crime.Criminals out there are LAUGHING at the criminal system in this county. I think the prosecutors or judges at the county level even pay someone to figure out a way to release people sitting in jail awaiting trial. This county is one of the most dangerous in Ohio for a reason. Keep releasing people and sniffing the roses you rather plant BUT you will continue to see these types of articles own your county.

    • Bob Sweatt

      Which ever one actually shoot the man will do serious jail time. The other two will get hit with a slap on the wrist and sent on their way.

      • Mark B

        You know one of them is going to Snitch out the other in a plea deal. But wait I thought gangstas didn’t snitch! we will see who sings first !

        • Bob Sweatt

          That’s another thing. Plea deals should be banned.

          Let me commit a crime then say not guilty until I hear a plea deal to were I won’t do even half the tine for the crime I committed. What a bunch of horse crap.

          • jz

            Another one who knows little about the justice system. Most of the time they are necessary evils.

          • Bob Sweatt

            Then please “o’ mighty smart one of the legal systems”. Enlighten us with your wisdom.

          • Bob Sweatt

            Plea deals are just another way for people not to be held accountable for their actions.

            Necessary evil, my white Irish butt. They are another reason why our legal systems is a completely joke.

        • Larry Muntz

          Mark B you are correct someone will roll over the others and I bet it has already happened. These tough guy gangstas are just that until their butts are on the line then there is more singing then you get on American Idol.

    • jz

      What an extremely silly comment. You know little about the real mechanics of how the justice system works. Limiting police ability to lock up?

    • Deans Auto

      Our county is so dangerous? really? North Ridgeville got #6 on the “safest Community” list in Ohio..Isnt THAT Lorain county, my friend. Just read it..google it.

  • datfigga

    Next mass shooting or child molestation ring i’m sure will get some good white folk news for you.

    • Lord Anoobis

      Tell me something: where can you find ONE area heavily populated by blacks in this country that does NOT look like a combat zone? Look what they did to the East side of Cleveland and Detroit.

      • Kelvin Gray

        You sir are absolutely correct. Because if my memory serves me correct Cleveland & Detroit are the only two areas where black people live at.

        • ken

          at midnight would you rather break down in a white neighborhood or a black neighborhood?

          • Kelvin Gray

            At midnight I’m so sure that I should be at home or work. No r out scouting around like a teenager. So my neighborhood preferably. And ther just so happen to be a lot of people of color that lives in my neighborhood. But to be honest if I had to break down anywhere I would want to break down where someone is going to offer assistance. Are you gonna help a fellow American sir?

          • ken

            yes, like I have many times.I would not want to break down in your neighborhood. I want to keep my car complete

          • Kelvin Gray

            Kenney my boy. You are probably right. You probably wouldn’t want to break down in my neighborhood. Because all the nice mixed different races neighbors might startle you when they attempt to help you. And that might cause you to run away and do something dangerous to yourself. So keep your car running very well and keep it out of my neighborhood.

            By the way 90 to 95% of the people in my neighborhood for some strange reason are homeowners. Can’t seem to figure that out.

          • ken

            I see you sidestepped the question. if you don’t want to answer it then don’t.

          • Kelvin Gray

            Proof read and reread. Your question was answered. I’m not going to continue to argue a mute point. Because no where in here does anything that you said nor I said have anything to do with Antonio Spraggins murder. And as far as you commenting on another statement that I made, maybe you should go back and have a little bit of fun and reread all 190 plus comments and you might find some of the answers to the questions that are battling you.

          • ken

            just as I thought.

          • Kelvin Gray

            You actually thought? Apparently you didn’t. Now if you want a full out argument with me fine. But think hard before you step that way. Because believe in what I say when I say that I am a fool sir. As a matter of fact I do believe that I’ve stated that somewhere on here before. Nothing that you possibly could say or type would be false about me, or any other Americans, or race of people. Because I don’t believe that you would say a false thing about anyone. Now if you don’t mind I’ve gotta get up and get dressed so I can go “POSTAL” like some of the other people around here. Because we are so distraught over the lose lastnight of our beloved team the Indy Colts that we don’t know what to do. Make killing a good hand full people at the mall would do the trick. Or maybe yet after I come back from church I’ll go to the movies and snap once I’m there. Do you have any ideas for me? Because I’m definitely not gonna seek any help.

            Good day sir.

          • ken

            you NEED help

          • Kelvin Gray

            I refuse to get it. I want to focus as much attention on your attention seeking butt as possible. Just to ensure that you get and receive exactly what you are looking for. So now where else would like to go my new best friend? Wanna get married next so we can be together forever & ever?

          • Kelvin Gray

            Hey Kenny, you didn’t answer my previous question you know that right? I asked you if you had any good ideas for me and you refused to answer. Come on now, that’s not polite of you.

          • Kelvin Gray

            By the way you old dusty racist piece of crap fart, when you make the comment “monkey”, like you have before, can you please explain EXACTLY what it is that you are trying to say? Because I don’t think your point is getting made and coming across to well.

          • ken

            LOL don’t care. bye

          • Kelvin Gray

            Oh really? So that’s how it is now? You can just make a statement and not have to validate at all. And just because you made it makes it true? Are you are smarter than I thought you were. And by the way it’s laugh out loud not LOL!!! The grammar police be on here and the just might give you a ticket.

          • Kelvin Gray

            And oh Kenny, :-) gotcha didn’t I? But it’s ok you don’t have to admit it. Good day sir.

          • formerlorainresident

            The Chronicle Telegram really needs to put an “ignore” button on this site! I do get tired of having to look through incoherent ramblings of certain persons to find any intelligent comments.

            Ignore Kelvin, Ignore Kelvin, Ignore Kelvin…….

          • Kelvin Gray

            But you’re not doing a good job of it are you? Why not pay more attention?

          • ken

            kelvin’s an a$$hole!

          • Kelvin Gray

            Ken. Correction, a whole a$$. And I had said it long before you thought it. But now that you’ve officially said it, thank you. Your compliment will allow me to get through the rest the day.

          • formerlorainresident

            The Chronicle Telegram really need to put an “ignore” button on this site! I do get tired of having to look through incoherent ramblings of certain persons to find any intelligent comments

          • Kelvin Gray

            Well…sometimes it is…and sometimes it isn’t. Just get your chuckle on or shake your head and go on to the next 1

          • Kelvin Gray

            Serial killing is not the same as mass murdering, nor is it spree killing, in which murders are committed in two or more locations with virtually no break in between; however, cases of extended bouts of sequential killings over periods of weeks or months with no apparent “cooling off” period or “return to normalcy” have caused some experts to suggest a category of “spree-serial killer”.

            According to the FBI, mass murder is defined as the person murdering four or more persons during a particular event with no cooling-off period between the murders. A mass murder typically occurs in a single location in which a number of victims are killed by an individual or more. With exceptions, many acts of mass murder end with the death of the perpetrator(s), whether by direct suicide or being killed by law enforcement.

          • formerlorainresident

            The above comments by Kelvin were copied directly from:

            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer‎

            Interesting, since from a previous Kelvin Gray post…..”Let me get my laugh out first. Secondly you mean to tell me that you can’t even fight your own verbal fight? You had to turn to the internet & Google? Showing your smarts there (or lack thereof).

            So who can’t fight their own verbal fight? “Who turned to the Internet and Google?” Looks like you!

            Oh, and since we are all using the internet here, I suppose we are all turning to the internet to have this “verbal fight.” Kind of a dumb comment, don’t you think?

            Finally, your statement below makes no sense whatsoever, “Why not pay more attention? Elyria, not south side of Lorain.” I stated I grew up in South Lorain, not that the crime was committed there. And I’m not paying attention?

            What is your obsession with mass murders anyway? Does it really matter if 20 people are killed in a single event, or 20 people are killed in 20 separate killings?

            Using your example and logic, if 20 people are killed by a white in a single tragedy, that means there is one white criminal. He is captured and put to death.

            If 20 people are killed in individual crimes, by black men, that equals 20 black criminals. So now we have to capture 20 criminals and put them to death.

            Or the other way around, black or white.

            Again, your obsession with mass murders is beginning to trouble me. Have you sought help for this problem?

          • Kelvin Gray

            Why yes they were my friend. My hands are dirty on that. So let’s began.

            You have proven you can read, although comprehending I don’t know so much so. In my previous raints I stated that his comment was dumb being backed by a dumb internet search. It’s copied and pasted in your post. As far as the mass murders well…a well reading person reading ALL THE comments would see it typed right there. But I’ll say this, what problem? Because I’m not on here daily patroling the news stories waiting to make a comment? Any comment? Preferably a negative racist come like some regulars on here? Didn’t you just yesterday that you yourself didn’t put much value into the things that were said on here? Or was it 2 days ago? Either I don’t see a need for you to call yourself worried about me. Unless you think that you might. As for you saying that you have black friends don’t mean squat to me. If you have to specifically point that what does that mean? I’m from the Southside & Westside of Elyria. I have friends in Elyria, Lorain, Oberlin, Amherst, Sheffield Lake and all over Lorain County. So I assume that you can make a fair determination of the races & colors.

            Mass murders…more likely to committed by a white man than a black man. Not once did I say that a black man would not commit a mass murder. Plus also, I don’t think that I’ve ever stated my race nor color. The reason for that is that I don’t see where it can or should have anything to do with what I’m saying. I’ve never even checked the box on applications or other paper work. My daughter’s mother is part German, part Puerto Rican and part black. Why do they list her as being an african american but shhe considers herself as being hispanic? Her oldest son is considered black just because. But her oldest daughter is considered Puerto Rican or Hispanic. Her ex husband a Puerto Rican. So why the difference based on appearance? So I see no need to state my color.

          • Pablo Jones

            I might have missed it but I didn’t see anyone ask you what color you are. For someone who doesn’t see race as an issue you spend an awful lot of time talking about it.

          • formerlorainresident

            Above you refer to you writings are “raints”, I believe you meant “rants.”

            Do you even know what a rant is? It means to to talk loudly in an angry manner. It means to complain in an unreasonable way.

            You just described your own comments very accurately. No need for anyone else to do so.

            A perfect description. Thank you for the clarification.

          • Kelvin Gray

            Oh SNAP!!! The spell check police got me again. Dang I can’t do nothing wrong. Son of a biscuit I tell ya. *Sitting in the corner crying my eyes out*.

          • formerlorainresident

            It is not the spelling, but your choice of words. Regardless of how you spell rant, the fact you described your own ramblings as such says it all.

            Basically Kelvin, you do not have a very good grasp on the English language, forget about the typos. Spelling is the least of your worries when it comes to expressing yourself through words.

            You are a “self-described ranter,” that is the point, no matter how you choose to spell it. This is not a good term to use to describe yourself Kelvin!

          • formerlorainresident

            Maybe because her father is black and her mother is part black. That makes her more than 50% black.

            Her race is not determined by her appearance, but rather her genetic make-up.

            So in the summer, I get very dark from the sun. Can I be a “summer hispanic” and a “winter caucasian?”

            With so many fathers, mothers etc. in the mix, who knows who is what?

    • buck

      Well there sure won’t be news adout a black man finding your money if you hide it in your work boots!!!!

      • Kelvin Gray

        Huh? You’ve got work boots? Show hope those aren’t joke telling work boots. If so you might wanna get a refund because they don’t seem to be helping you out much.

    • formerlorainresident

      And they should pay the price as well, white or black!

  • buck

    Are there a lot of blacks there?

  • formerlorainresident

    Disingenuous white liberals, mandate that all failures of the Black community be blamed on the lingering effects of slavery; persistent and entrenched white racism; and, of course, white privilege, These are the reasons they give for continued Black failure.

    It is an individual’s choice to engage in crime. If, when you add up the individuals who chose crime as a vocation (or avocation) in Elyria, it becomes clear that the city is dangerous primarily because of one racial group.

    This is not a racist comment, but rather fact. The law enforcement statistics confirm this.

    I really do not care if a person is black, white or purple. If they commit such heinous crimes, they need to be removed from society forever!

    Responsibility and accountability must be color blind. I don’t care if you grew up in a shack, or a penthouse, it does not excuse criminality. Remove this scum from the streets and Elyria will be a much better place for it.

    And spare me the “I don’t understand” excuse because I grew up privileged. I did not. I also grew up on these streets, but chose the right path for my life. This excuse is getting old and tired.

    • Zen Grouch

      **Disingenuous white liberals, mandate that all failures of the Black community be blamed on the lingering effects of slavery**

      …mighty broad brush you’re using there.

      • White Man

        Everyone here lives under a black mans rules!! OBAMA each its own black and white people commit crimes. Blacks usely fight and resort to gun violence and shoot at eachother. ( which isn’t rite) Whites on the other hand will go into the public (innocent bystanders) and shoot 20-30 people just because their parents took a video game from them! A white guy just robbed the credit union and not surprising, but nobody seemed to want to comment on the WHITE ARMED Robber. SMH

        • Zen Grouch

          …are you familiar with the term “broad brush?”

          • White Man

            Your comments through out the story was just ignoranis sound it out buddy

          • Zen Grouch

            In all seriousness…

            …I haven’t a clue as to what it is you’re trying to communicate.

            I just hope you’re stoned right now and this isn’t your normal state.

          • jz

            From kindergarten thru 12th grade we all took grammar, English, spelling, literature etc. Where were you?

        • formerlorainresident

          Yo, white man. RU really a whitey. I tri to translate ur speak above but have problems understanding what u tryng to say.

          I say as a reel white man that no matter wha’ yo kolor, if you dum enuf to make a crime, and get caught by da man, u to need to go to a jail.

          Maybe credit union robber can share a sell wit the 3 killers in this story.

          Geez….get a handle on the English language will you?

          • formerlorainresident

            Think I need a Ebonics 101 course to communicate here. Do they have a version of Rosetta Stone for Ebonics?
            And some people wonder why they can’t find a job.

          • White Man

            Get a handle on a polish sausage will you?

          • formerlorainresident

            Let’s see, page 102 of Ebonics for Dummies says that really means “go grab your penis.” I prefer to find a “ho” to do that for me.

            See I am learning, maybe someday I can return to the hood and fit in with other mentally challenged individuals such as yourself.

          • White Man

            If you had a woman you wouldn’t be on this blog 24/7 .
            Or did you not understand? Means all the time.

          • Kelvin Gray

            Come on now that was really uncalled for and inappropriate.

          • formerlorainresident

            Yes, you are correct. It really was uncalled for. How dare White Man ridicule my Polish heritage. I do think he owes me an apology! Point is, at least us Pollocks have a grasp of the English language and use it appropriately.

            Seriously though, would you hire a man who speaks like this? And spare me the “they are just typo’s excuse!!!

            If you cannot even communicate using the standard vernacular, found in the language in the country in which you reside, how can you ever expect to make it and move up in the world?

            How one speaks, the words he chooses, reflect their level of education directly affect their opportunities.

            My use of the word “ho” was a simple hyperbole, intended to make this point.

          • Kelvin Gray

            Simply put hecky no. I don’t even give the typos any thought because I actually can understand what they say most of the time.At least show some type of smarts about yourself. But I don’t put much thought into these ridiculous comments made by these improperly informed and uneducated people on here. Oh they may have an education but…and we’ll leave it at that. personally I get somewhat of a kick out of some of the comments on here. They truly make me laugh. And laughing is a good thing.

          • formerlorainresident

            Agree…I am simply on here to amuse myself, a sort of entertainment when I get bored. I really do not expect to learn anything here, or be able to persuade anyone to see things differently.

            I do find it interesting when you ask a specific question of someone, they can never provide a direct response. When they resort to name-calling they have clearly lost the argument.

            Oh well, back to work. I have lots of entitlement programs to pay for with my taxes. Given the horrible Jobs numbers out today, it looks like we will be supporting even more people in the future.

            I simply do not understand how anyone can argue against the opinion that success in this country is a direct result of hard work, determination and making the right choices. This article demonstrates what happens when one does not follow these three principles.

            While I do understand it is more challenging for some than others, I suppose since I did it, I do not accept excuses from those who claim they cannot do so because they had the deck stacked against them from birth.

            To those that use this excuse, I offer them a straw. So they can just “suck it up.”

        • tomfeher

          He was a Latino with a heavy accent

        • formerlorainresident

          White Man,

          Hmmmm…and I thought Obama was half white? That’s OK, the blacks can claim him as their own. The biggest failure as a U.S. president in my lifetime.

          So exactly what has Obama, the “Ruler” done to improve the plight of the black man? Unemployment has not improved, out of wed-lock births are at an all time high. Drug abuse continues to run rampant in the black population. He clearly has not improved the education system, you are evidence of this.

          Oh I know, the number of persons receiving food stamps has more than doubled, and you all can get free Obama phones. I am sure you consider this a success.

          He has done absolutely nothing to help the blacks, nor the whites. His term as president has been a total disaster. The only one who should be happy is Jimmy Carter, as he will no longer go down as the worst president of the United States.

          Can you give me a single example of how life has improved for blacks under the Obama administration? And I am not talking about “freebies”, but rather something which has actually improved the lives of blacks and helped them to be more competent and economically self-sufficient.

          Please respond only with an intelligent answer. Speak in clear english and make your point. Stop putting forth incomprehensible garbage which only further proves my point. Blacks are not better off, as you continue to demonstrate through your ramblings.

          • Mark B

            Obama has handed out more welfare , removed the welfare reform policies from prior administrations. What most don’t understand is that living on welfare and all of the hand outs is just a way to keep them repressed by “The Man” Take notice that you will never have anything more than just enough to survive by living on government hand outs. if you want nice things and be able to take nice vacations, have a nice house ect …… then you got to get off of the government dole. Obama keep the brothers down , hand them some more freebies , keep them repressed.

      • formerlorainresident

        Zen, not really a broad brush, as I qualified my statement by narrowing it to liberals who are “disingenuous.” I did not make a broad statement indicting all liberals. Some of my best friends are liberals, just need to keep working on them until they are cured.

        • Zen Grouch

          OK… you might be correct in stating that you qualified your statement.

          However, I don’t believe so.

          I believe you actually muddled your statement, and here’s why I believe that.

          I’m of the opinion that a “liberal” who is “disingenuous” is not actually a liberal, but is something more like a politically correct puppet.

          But I suppose that’s the exact definition of a liberal in certain right wing dictionaries.

          • formerlorainresident

            We can agree to disagree on the exact definition of a liberal, not my intentions to place all liberals into the same category.

          • Zen Grouch

            Sounds like a winner all around…

          • jz

            Nice reply.

          • Zen Grouch

            thanks…

  • Stan K

    I say put more drive-thrus ,add a few guns shops to that area and let natural selection take place.

    • White Man

      I’m sure things like this dont happen in the trailer park!

      • Kelvin Gray

        Also I’ve got a question. Was there ever a time in American history where the Mafia ruled with a strong heavy fist? If there ever was a time such as this in American history would the mafia not have done the same thing? I’m not saying that it’s true, I’m just asking was there ever a such time in our history? Take notice that I did say “our American history” not black history or white history.

  • JSchmidt

    Well, so much for utilizing their college degrees

  • formerlorainresident

    Personal accountability… leads to societal accountability… leads to prosperity. If black americans would take their current freebies and preferential treatment, apply accountability, then run with it, their situations would improve exponentially faster than any other minority group. Notice what the Asian community is doing.

    Why don’t we see many Asians on welfare? Because it would be shameful for them, they have a strong work ethic.

    The countless trillions of dollars which have been thrown away over the past 50 years on the war on poverty have resulted in nothing more than an entitlement mentality. In essence, these government programs have done little but to continue to enslave the blacks. Nobody can argue the fact this has not worked, the evidence speaks for itself. Taking more money from those that have, to give to the have-nots, will do nothing until personal behaviors change.

    The fact is, liberals think black Americans are inferior to whites, which is why the worst, most crime-ridden places to live in America are inevitably run by liberals. That’s acceptable to liberals because they don’t think black Americans deserve any better. Think NYC, Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, and yes Elyria.

    • formerlorainresident

      Again, not meant to, demean all liberals, the ones I refer to are the “extreme” liberals. The Al Sharptons, Chris Matthews and Michael Bloombergs of the world.

      They are the first to throw around the word racist. Most extreme liberals abuse minorities. They look for a group, typically blacks, convince them they are nothing and that they need their help to survive, then exploit them for political power. Extreme liberals are usually ignorant but claim everyone else is.

      • formerlorainresident

        I have said enough on this subject. If guilty, I hope these three rot in hell, and the same with any other criminals, regardless of race, who commit these types of atrocities against society.

      • datfigga

        ok liberals are the worst ever. how would you describe the opposition? And what would you do?(action) anybody can be a debbie downer monday morning qb, what answers do you have?

    • jz

      War on poverty and War on drugs policies both created more problem than either one has solved.

    • Mark B

      Look at the Mexican population , they will risk their lives , jump across the boarder just to get a low paying job. But you got to give them credit they put forth a great effort to get a job , hell most of the ones born here wont even try to get a job , they are happy with a minimal handout from Uncle Tom / Obama.

      • Willie Jenkins

        I respect a man who begs for work. Rather than beg for sympathy or handouts. I have never met a homeless person of Mexican descent. They refuse to not work.

        • datfigga

          don’t get out much do ya.

          • Willie Jenkins

            I just moved up here. Judging by my first few weeks. I am bound to learn a lot. LOL

        • Kelvin Gray

          Really? Have you ever even been to the West coast? Washington, Oregan, or California? How about New Mexico, Arizona or Texas? Better yet how about even Mexico? You will see a lot of homeless Mexicans in those areas. Obviously your eyes have been opened yet.

      • datfigga

        wow. Mark B you should stop now, but what’s really sad is getting people to agree with such uninformed mumbo jumbo.(I must be on welfare i broke from the queens english. lol)

    • Willie Jenkins

      Bingo…It is a structured well long thought out plan. If they didn’t want to or better yet benefit from offering assistance to the poor than they wouldn’t do it. They know the younger women will use that as a first priority. Usually to escape a drug or alcohol infested home. Often riddled with drug dealing ,and abuse. Felons can’t find honest work. The system always seems to be there with open arms ,and a cushion. Why is this? Well easier to keep tabs on… Easier to keep uneducated, and in the dark. Higher percentage of the children to follow a similar route. Easier to keep in a certain designated area (section 8). These are of course choices…no one is forcing anything on anyone. People are usually a product of their environment. Meaning chances are they will follow the footsteps of the path laid out for them.

  • Jamie Smith

    Look’s like we are going to need 3 more cots on Death Row….Till that happens those young punks in the big house will be fair game for “Big Bubba” and his Buddy’s. Its sad, one dead, 3 headed to prison after Dennis Will and Company get done with them. Great Job Elyria Police Dept…..Hummmmm , Wonder which one is going to testify against the Others first ?

  • Jennifer Williams

    Besides Murder the only other crime I see here is by these guys’ barber LOL.

    • formerlorainresident

      They can always get a haircut at Art McKoy’s Superfly barber shop. In fact, based on documented illegal activity there, they can also get a little crack at the same time.

      There the term “take a little off the top” means skimming a hit off a dime bag before you go out and sell it.

  • Larry Muntz

    There is one thing I have noticed in many years and that is, this society has gone down hill since the draft was eliminated. These people want to shoot guns and kill others maybe the draft should be brought back, or even make the military an option to sentencing.

    • It has to stop

      Horrible. idea. As a vet myself the last thing I want is one of these thugs having my back. They are weak individuals who are used to taking the easy way out.

      • Larry Muntz

        I am also a vet. I still think if they didn’t wash out, Marine Corp training would break them. You do have a point, But you and I know they don’t have the intestinal fortitude for any armed forces.

        • It has to stop

          Today the mentality of these thugs are far different from twenty years ago where some of these kids could be turned to the military and be damn good soldiers/persons who I would have no problem having by my side and trust them with my life.

          • Mark B

            If they went into the service and became a Man , they would have the respect they try so hard to achieve in the hood .

    • Bob Sweatt

      While I was in the service. I knew of two people who took the option of going into the service rather then jail. And I have to say they were two of the most well adjusted people I meant while serving. Both at one point told me that the military changed their life. If it wasn’t for the military they would probably be dead.

      Now that was back in the 80′s. I really don’t think that would work with kids today. They are to self righteous and to many of can only shoot properly while playing a video game. Like, It has to Stop says below. I would not want one of these thugs watching me back. You put one of these thugs through half the crap i did and saw. They would be crying in a corner like a little girl.

  • formerlorainresident

    White Man,

    Hmmmm…and I thought Obama was half white? That’s OK, the blacks can claim him as their own. The biggest failure as a U.S. president in my lifetime.

    So exactly what has Obama, the “Ruler” done to improve the plight of the black man? Unemployment has not improved, out of wed-lock births are at an all time high. Drug abuse continues to run rampant in the black population. He clearly has not improved the education system, you are evidence of this.

    Oh I know, the number of persons receiving food stamps has more than doubled, and you all can get free Obama phones. I am sure you consider this a success.

    He has done absolutely nothing to help the blacks, nor the whites. His term as president has been a total disaster. The only one who should be happy is Jimmy Carter, as he will no longer go down as the worst president of the United States.

    Can you give me a single example of how life has improved for blacks under the Obama administration? And I am not talking about “freebies”, but rather something which has actually improved the lives of blacks and helped them to be more competent and economically self-sufficient.

    Please respond only with an intelligent answer. Speak in clear english and make your point. Stop putting forth incomprehensible garbage which only further proves my point. Blacks are not better off, as you continue to demonstrate through your ramblings.

    • Zen Grouch

      **The biggest failure as a U.S. president in my lifetime.**

      You my friend are very articulate for a 4 year old!

      • formerlorainresident

        This says it all. Give me one accomplishment of his administration. Just one.

        • Zen Grouch

          Bush sent our country to war based on lies, killing thousand of U.S. citizens needlessly…

          …Obama promised to get us out, was elected and kept his word.

          And how about what he didn’t do…

          Republicans were howling because he wouldn’t go to war with Syria to fix a problem that is now being taken care of peacefully.

          Obama values the lives of U.S. servicemen more than Bush.

          But I guess that really isn’t an “accomplishment” since there’s no body count.

          • formerlorainresident

            It was not just Bush who sent this country to war, the Congress agreed to do so after 911, including then Senator Barack Obama, based on the intelligence information at hand.

            As I stated above, I was never a Bush fan either.

            Let’s address lies for a moment. A few recent ones come to mind:

            Behghazi attack was due to a video? Really?

            NSA does not spy on Americans? Really?

            IRS does not target particular groups? Really?

            Fast and Furious was a successful operation? Really?

            Obamacare says you can keep your doctor and health plan? Really?

            Obamacare will save the average American family $2500 per year? really?

            Iran is only producing nuclear fuel to provide for their energy needs? Really?

            Free elections in Egypt will result in a democratic government? Really?

            Solar energy will make the U.S. energy independent? Really? (Tell that to all the American workers in the coal industry who lost their jobs forever)

            GM has paid back all the government loans? Really? (Well all but $20B)

            “I will never let Detroit go bankrupt”? Really? (Aren’t they now in bankruptcy)

            I can continue well into the night, but I think I have made my point.

            Getting back to the original story, what has Obama done for the minorities in Elyria, or any other American city, since he became president. This was the original question. His policies have them dependent on the government in a way never before seen in the history of this country.

            But of course, this was the Obama plan. Feed them, so they keep coming back to him for more food. He has shamelessly exploited the very people he claims he is here to help. Even a blind man can see this, regardless of your political affiliation.

          • datfigga

            Do you own a business?

          • Zen Grouch

            **It was not just Bush who sent this country to war, the Congress agreed to do so after 911…**

            Yeah… that’s before they realized Bush lied about the WMD.

            Look, you asked for 1 thing Obama has done for the country. I gave you at least one, and could do more, but that would be silly on my part, because you hear only what you want to.

            And apparently you need nobody to ask you what you believe Obama did to hurt this country…

            So, find someone else to respond to the question that was never asked, I haven’t got the time or desire to “debate” you.

          • Pablo Jones

            Funny, most of the Democrats in Congress said they saw the evidence and validated the evidence through their own sources. I guess they were lying too. I still haven’t seen credible evidence that they know for certain that there weren’t WMDs but said there were.

          • Zen Grouch

            **Funny, most of the Democrats in Congress said they saw the evidence and
            validated the evidence through their own sources. I guess they were
            lying too.**

            Funny… I’ll bet you’re making claims you can’t substantiate!

            And no… I don’t believe the Democrats in Congress are the ones lying here.

            But I guess it’s possible you aren’t lying.

            Give us a link showing that the Democrats claimed to have verified Bush’s lies to be the truth, and I’ll reconsider my opinion of you.

            …well, not my entire opinion, but maybe some of it.

          • Pablo Jones
          • Zen Grouch

            If it’s on the Internet, then it must be true, ‘eh?

            http://www.bushf*****us.com

          • Pablo Jones

            Are they not accurate quotes? But I guess it is easier to live in a fantasy world. I’ll tread lightly and try not to burst your bubble.

            “There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years … We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass
            destruction.”

            Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

            “In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear
            program.

            He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists,including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”

            Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

            “We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass
            destruction.”

            Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

            “We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout
            his country.”

            Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

          • Zen Grouch

            Nice Cut ‘n Paste job!

            Now here are some of those quotes in their proper context… But I’m sure that means nothing to the Right Wing Nuts who shouted “Wag the Dog!” when Clinton wanted to go after Saddam…

            The same Republican’ts who feel that it’s best to shut government down without really thinking it through.

            But anyway:

            http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

          • Pablo Jones

            “Give us a link showing that the Democrats claimed to have verified
            Bush’s lies to be the truth, and I’ll reconsider my opinion of you.”

            I gave you the link and the quotes. Even reading their full statements they ARE NOT DENYING the evidence of WMDs. They state as a fact that there are WMDs and that Saddam wants to further develop them.

            The only thing you could say was misleading about quotes is how committed to action they were. But I wasn’t calling them war hawks or using the quotes to say they were. I said they have seen the evidence that Saddam and Iraq had WMDs. No where in any of those statements did they say there were no WMDs. And If they thought there were no WMDs why did they vote in favor of removing Saddam?

          • Zen Grouch

            You obviously don’t understand the meaning of the word “verified.”

            I won’t explain it to you, because I really don’t care about your opinion or changing it. That would be an ignorant act in futility.

            Oh what the heck, maybe I’ll give you the basics of how verified was used in our discussion.

            If someone tells you a lie, and you believe it, based on false information they produced, you were had by a liar.

            Now, if someone lies to you, shows you false information they produced based on lies, and you then do your research to “VERIFY” that the information you are making a decision on is true, then you have “VERIFIED” that information.

            Colon Powell wishes he had the chance to “ATTEMPT TO VERIFY” Bush’s lies before he spread them like wildfire:
            http://www.nationalmemo.com/powells-chief-of-staff-iraq-intel-was-outright-lies-but-powell-didnt-knowingly-lie-at-u-n/

            But anyway, our mind is made up, and ain’t nobody but Jebus gonna change it… well, maybe nobody but Jebus, Rush or Sarah.

          • Pablo Jones

            Ok, So going by what you said. Did Bush lie? If all his intelligence reports said it was true, according to you he wasn’t a liar.

            I really don’t have the time to dig through 12 years of quotes to find them. They were on the news all the time back then saying it.

          • Zen Grouch

            Pablo…

            You seem to be working under the false impression that I give a flying f*** about what you think or believe.

          • Pablo Jones

            wow you really think everything is all about you. I don’t do this for you, to convince you or change your mind. I do it to point out your hypocrisy to others that read you posts,

          • Zen Grouch

            So… It’s not that you’re a politically biased sheep…

            …it’s because you’re an educator!

            **PRAISE JESUS!!!**

          • Pablo Jones

            As far as shutting down the government. Nothing happen all the problems that people said would come from it never happened. The only minor issues that did come up were from upper management in the different organizations that said they need to make the people feel the pain.

            If 2/3 of current spending was fine 5 years ago, I doubt losing less than 1/20 for a few weeks would have any impact.

          • Zen Grouch

            **As far as shutting down the government. Nothing happen all the problems that people said would come from it never happened…**

            And Folks… THAT’s the view from the Right!

          • formerlorainresident

            Hmmmmm….

            Here are just a few. No need to look them up, I will provide them for you.

            “If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”

            President Clinton,
            Feb. 17, 1998

            “He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.”

            Sandy Berger,
            Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

            “We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.Constitution and
            Laws, to take necessary actions, (including, if appropriate,
air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction
programs.

            “
Letter to
            President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and
            others Oct. 9, 1998

            “Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”

            
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

            “We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his
            country.”


            Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

            “We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass
            destruction.”


            Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002-

            “I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force–
            if necessary– to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our
            security.”

            
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

            (Now Secretary of State)

            “In the fouryears since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein
            has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological
weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program.
He has also given aid, comfort,
            and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his
            capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”

            Sen. Hillary Clinton
            (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

            Not to mention the video footage of 300,000 plus Kurds Saddam based in Northern Iraq, including women and children Or is gas not a chemical weapon?

            So Bush lied? It seems all the Democratic leadership lied as well, including the current and former Democratic Secretaries of State. (Clinton and Kerry).

            The facts speak for themselves. The words were spoken by both political parties. They are on the record.

          • Zen Grouch

            I LOVE that you posted a quote by President Clinton who had justification and small window of time to attack Saddam Hussein…

            …AND WAS THWARTED BY THE REPUBLICANS SO THAT HE COULD CONCENTRATE SOLELY ON THEIR WHITEWATER WITCH HUNT!

            You guys are funny!

            Not so funny that I feel the need to respond to every little thing you decide to throw out there however…

            You know… for someone who once said, and I quote here:

            **I am not getting into a political debate here.**

            …it sure does sound like you have a hankerin’ for a political debate, ala Republican’t style!

            No, if you’re the kind of person who truly believes our president has done NOT ONE good thing for our country, I’ve got no use for you. There’s something seriously wrong with you personally.

          • datfigga

            There was no original question about Obama. It was about 3 black kids killing 1 black kid. By the time i read the story it was already Obamas fault. lol. Funny to read a bunch of people talking about personal responsibiltiy and playing the blame game at the same time. Seems as though there may be some hypocrisy. Maybe the same hypocrisy obama deals with. So Line by line what would you do to fix those problems let’s have a healthy debate.

          • formerlorainresident

            I believe it was you “bro’” White Man who began this dialogue.

        • Zen Grouch

          Oh, thought of a minor accomplishment…

          Remember how Bush gave up on catching Osama, and Obama had to finish THAT job?

          • It has to stop

            Could have sworn it was Seal Team 6 that finished that job……

          • Zen Grouch

            So… you’re one of those “The Buck Stops Here” kind of guys, but ONLY when things go wrong, ‘eh?

            I suppose the only way you would give Obama any credit for taking out Osama is if he would have slithered into the desert compound on his belly and slit bin Laden’s throat with a straight razor?

          • It has to stop

            At that point, grudgingly I would. Seriously though, when it comes to taking out terrorist the only people that get the credit for their removal is the troops on the ground who directly take them out. Doesn’t matter who is president at the time or who happens to be in the senate/congress.

          • Zen Grouch

            OK, if that operation to get Osama would have gone horribly wrong, who would have gotten the blame?

            *…I wonder …I wonder*

          • It has to stop

            Obama I’m sure but in a perfect world it should be applied to the military commanders (Seal Team 6 leaders) or whomever actually did the planning of the raid.

          • formerlorainresident

            No, that was Seal Team Six. And the informant that turned in Bin Laden, the Pakistani physician, sits in a prison cell and Obama is content to let him rot there.

          • datfigga

            did bush shoot anybody in iraq? cheney? well cheney did shoot that dude who didn’t want to do business with him and made him come on tv an apologize for getting shot. that’s gangsta!

          • Pablo Jones

            President Obama did order the killing of black Somalian teenage boys during his first term. More black on black crime.

          • datfigga

            Amazing. So do tell why does black on black crime bother you so much? Oh and I live out here on the west coast where the mexican crime is rampant.

          • datfigga

            the asian gangs are the worst thing going. And the white dudes are killing the families up.

          • datfigga

            truth is truth not rhetoric!

          • Pablo Jones

            It doesn’t bother me. No crime that isn’t near me bothers me. If a bunch of crazy whites, black, Mexicans, or who ever wants to kill each other that is fine by me. They just need to do the right thing. After they kill some one they need to put a bullet in their own head.

          • datfigga

            And bush killed dark skinned people to. what’s your point. people like to kill dark skinned people. appreciate the news flash bro.

          • Pablo Jones

            But it was the black community that said things were going to change now. But I guess that never happened and they are still on the bandwagon thinking his poo don’t stink. Talk about having your head in the sand. A person makes things worse for the black community and they rally to defend him. No wonder the poverty rate for the black community keeps growing.

            Funny, Roots was on tv the other day as I was flipping through the channels. There was one scene where a black man gave up his life to protect the life of his child. Now a large majority of the men in the black community won’t even get a job to improve the lives of their kids. And it isn’t just the black community it is growing across the board but not as fast as in the black community.

          • datfigga

            I am impressed by your “fact finding”. I like the way you find a way to turn use percentages, or in theory. Obama in interviews prior to election and after election expressed that he is the President, not the Black president. It always amazes me how, some always attempt to champion Obama as the president for the Blacks. So are you saying all this time the white guys we’ve been electing are only for whites? So for whatever race you are? Is there one person who speaks or exclusively acts, or makes decisions for you? Interesting comment in regards to blacks not getting a job to improve their lives. HMMm, i’d imagine if employers all felt as you do, how would they get pass the interview? or get to the interview? I mean economically your area is falling apart what are you doing to stop that? blame the blacks? I would imagine it’s the blacks fault that industry has no interest in coming there. what are you doing about that? finding some percentages to say its the blacks fault? How many people do you employ? Are you actively seeking opportunities to improve the area? Really Mass shooting. WOW. I’ll leave that bit of silliness alone. Really what are you doing? I say blame game. That’s not where I live my man. Obviously there are a bunch of idiots around there doing dumb ish. They’re not the reason there are no jobs there. It’s not Obama’s fault either. I’m from there born an raised. I remember when west park little league started fading away. I remember when GM closed. I remember reaganomics hitting Elyria. Sure wasn’t black people causing those problems. However, when you deal with people always looking to blame someone else rather than look at themselves, it’s always someone elses fault. Thank you Pablo for your Cryatribe. It rings of hypocrisy. Speaking and quoting facts about personal responsibility, while not quite taking any.

          • Pablo Jones

            First I didn’t say President Obama was the President for Blacks. He is the President of the United States and I try and always reference him as President Obama whenever I first start a conversation with him. What I did say though was the black community though he was “The” Black President and that their lives would improve. This is based on all the statements from the black community after he was elected. One of the common states was “now we (black community) are going to get ours”. That previous Presidents didn’t care about the black community, but now with the election of Obama everything will change. But times 90% of the black community supported him, but things have actually gotten worse for the black community instead of better.

            Can the President directly create jobs? No, aside from some direct appointments. But the President does set the agenda and policy of the government while in office which does affect employment. Obama’s ban on drill in the Gulf of Mexico eliminated over 50,000 jobs. His EPA initiatives resulted in the closing of dozens of coal power plants (Avon) and tens of thousands of people.

            The President should be for all the people and do what is right for the Country, Economy, and People, not push ideological agendas regardless of the impact on the country.

            If a city is economically challenged you need to look and see what the cause is. Crime in general is not usually the cause, it is a symptom. Usually the cause is over government spending that results in higher taxes that drives business away (Look at the cities that are in decline and the ones that aren’t and look who is running them and how they are running them). Once business leaves it is a downward spiral which creates/brings in the crime. As for GM in Elyria the unions killed that plant. When there are hundreds of GM plants you want to be the easiest to work with not a pain. Anyone that worked there or knew people that worked there knows how things were.

      • formerlorainresident

        Quite the track record. Just a few facts, I am not getting into a political debate here.

        But then again, I suppose it is still Bush’s fault !! (I was not a big Bush fan either)

        Give me one major accomplishment of his administration. Just one.

        He is the most divisive president we have ever had, pitting races and economic classes against one another. The rest of the world laughs in our face, as they know we will do nothing as they build nuclear arsenals. Obamacare is a train wreck!

        1- Obama is on pace to double the Federal debt in the 8 years of his presidency.

        2- The U.S. has fallen in global competitiveness rankings every year.

        3- Food stamp recipients up over 100%.

        4- A record number of Americans on disability (up 20%).

        5- Median household income has gone down every year.

        6- A record poverty rate of 16.1%

        7- Gas prices have doubled.

        8- Labor participation rate is at a 35-year low.

        9- 7/8 of all “New jobs” are part-time (thanks Obamacare).

        10- In 2009 the average duration of people collecting unemployment was 19.8 weeks, today it is 36.6 weeks.

        11- Health insurance premiums and deductibles are skyrocketing.

        12- In 2008 the Federal Reserve held $476 billion in U.S. bonds, today it holds more than $2 trillion.

        13- 76% of Americans are now living paycheck to paycheck.

        14- Student loan debt has more than doubled, now it is over $1 trillion.

        15- In 2009 the U.S. debt to GDP ratio was under 70%, now it is over a 100%.

        16- Not completely finished destroying the U.S. economy, President Obama announced the other day, October 16th, his plans to quickly move on to amnesty.

        17- I could go on, but I’m getting bored.

        • Mark B

          Care you are going to confuse all the simple minds with your facts .

  • datfigga

    To many diatribes can’t read them all. In no way what so ever do i support violence, in no way do I support any person or organization, nor religious group, other than children and the disabled getting any type of free ride. How often do you fine folk commenting with such clever barbs and unreliable facts pay b&o tax(business and occupation)? I do. Funny I was just reading about a Lady named Koon who is being charged with all kinds of child rape at daycares in your area and I failed to see any of your names in the comment section?? I really looked because i like to do my research before i speak. I didn’t realize Obama was elected to “uplift the plight of the black man” (I guess i was running my business when that memo went out) I thought he was elected to clean up the mess of a guy who took the biggest surplus of cash in history and redirected it to friends and acquaintances. I thought he was elected to clean up the situation of the weapons of mass destruction oops, the evil dictator as revisionist history would have it. I remember Stimulus checks going out to folks long before obama set foot on the campaign trail. Weren’t we in a recession when Obama was sworn in, i’m sorry may have been at work or school and missed that place in time. Welfare: well i was fortunate enough to join the military (the last of 5 siblings from elyria that are oh my black to do so) and be able to see the world, live in different areas of the country and find that whites and asians are the biggest receivers of welfare and social benefits. Damn. I understand hey i’m from there you see white, black, mexican. You see a few asians who left the west coast or east coast to establish businesses in other areas of the country, or you may not know the Cleveland Clinic is known world wide and a fare amount of people who are successful in the health care industry learn and work there. Another fun fact for ya(damn ebonics) the largest benefactor of affirmitive action in the business world we call it DBE (look it up)is (drum roll) white women. As a hush comes over the room. Do your research in Business not theory my friends and tell me if i’m wrong. So if white women are the biggest benefactors and they are married and family members with white men HHHMMMMMMM! Idk, but do your research and let’s have an intelligent debate my friends who have replied with so much vigor. Black on Black crime is the worst part of my life. It’s always broadcast on the news. Why doesn’t the chronicle focus on some of the black men I know from there born, raised, love and will only come to on the holidays because of the negative attitudes of people. You people do not have a clue of the type of Black men that Elyria has created. I don’t know you, but just by the way you come of on here I know they are more successful financially, socially and undoubtedly in character. There are Black men who live there and have never left that I know, offer more to that city and area than i’m sure you do. It is a terrible time in my hometown right now and I hate it, my heart hurts because of it. I love where i’m from. I tell all black men if they don’t have a good job there just leave because that place has no opportunity, but I wouldn’t just say black or Just man. I would tell the young of any race or gender to leave. What are you doing to create jobs in your area for the young??

    • Kelvin Gray

      Hmm…really? Who in Sam Hell would really give a thumbs down to this? Yet again WAAAYYYY off the subject but yet right on point. Go figure. Wish I had the time to sit around to b@*!h & complain all day. But I seem to busy making a life for myself outside of your world for some reason. Who would have ever thought than from an individual from good ‘ole Elyria, OH?

  • datfigga

    Lord Anoobis I take it you’ve never been to Austell, Ga, Marietta, Dallas there are many.

  • datfigga

    I believe he has experienced the most filibusters in history. Most of your facts are things the president is not responsible for i.e gas prices. I don’t remember any bill ever passing without a debate that offered no alternative. He is divisive because white people can’t take anything, but a white being in charge. That’s ya’ll internal thing. Oh and by the way just because i’m black doesn’t mean i agree with everything a black man says and does. By that thinking you’d be like ms. koon, or jerry sandusky. Ok forget the pres. About the original comment. Why are you not on the other page talking about how disgusting white women are after that lady in amherst did that to kids. I mean with your views who cares about a black life lost. But them babies UUMMMM?

    • Pablo Jones

      The President doesn’t get filibustered, just bills in the Senate. And there hasn’t been a true filibuster in decades. If you are referring to the blocking of the judges the President has nominated, they have only tracked cloture votes on them since around the 1960s. In the past if a person would pass Senate review they would move on to the next person.

      The President is responsible for gas prices if his policies and actions reduce oil out put. Banning oil production in the gulf removed 200-500,000 barrels a day of oil production, removing leases for oil drill on government land also reduced out put. If the US produces more oil than OPEC can cut the price will fall.

      The President is divisive because his stance is “I won so I set the rules”. His policies are failures and have only made things worse. But the black community can’t understand that so if anyone disagrees it is because he is black.

      The Kuhn case is several months old and people have repeatedly commented on her, probably more viciously than these 3 guys.

      • datfigga

        I appreciate you correcting me on the filibuster issue. Actually i’m in business and you’d be surprised to know the private sector is reaping record profits. You know the biggest cost to a business? Labor. If you can do whatever you do with minimal cost in labor, which means hire through the temp service instead of putting people on your books that’s what you will do. Is it the president that makes gas go up at holiday time? no comsumption. I think Bush was more devisive. I def went to more memorials under Bush then Obama. I measure real not rhetoric. Obama’s problem is actually being to transparent. I do wish he would be more like bush on that doing stuff in secrecy instead of publicly. And generally the winner does set the rules that’s why they won. Your statement actually explains the problem. When who i vote for loses i generally have to go by what the winner wants, being a military guy and all. Wish others understood those principles. If blacks are dumb, broke and have nothing how are they causing you a problem, they have nothing! So were the good times rolling while bush was in office? Maybe Reagan?

        • Mark B

          How many times have you seen oblamer go to the Saudis and get them to increase output ,
          Not Once , Never !

          • Pablo Jones

            We don’t need them to increase their output. They cut to keep prices high. If we ramped up our production they couldn’t cut enough to keep prices high and they will have to produce which will drop the price of oil. But that goes against his green agenda.

        • Pablo Jones

          The election was decided by a few percentage points, Obama won by something like 53% to 47%. So saying everything has to be my way spits on the 47% of the country that voted against him. That doesn’t sound like a way to unify the country, more like a way to separate the country. The country did want complete Democrat control which is why the Republican’s won the House in 2010. The people want a government that will do what is right, not political agendas.

          I find it surprising that you said Obama is being too transparent. Because most people can’t find out what he wants to do or other on goings in the government. He will say he will get to the bottom of things and makes a big show that he is in change and then 6 months later nothing has been done.

          Unemployment peaked at 7% between 2000 and 2008 and averaged around 5.4% or less. That sounds like a great time compared to 7+% unemployment. Also the first time the labor force was ever reduced was in the last 5 years, that is why unemployment was made it’s way to 7% it should be much higher.

  • delaBeckwith

    Niqqers are all subhuman animals.

    • Kelvin Gray

      Ohh ho ho…that comment will get deleted. Good bye good buddy!!!

      • beety

        You’re right he will probably be deleted for saying that… even though I am pretty sure he is black, but me as a white person could call anyone I want a hillbilly incestuous piece of spam sucking white trailer trash and it would stay…

      • beety

        sure enough his comment has been deleted but mine is still there!

  • formerlorainresident

    Hey Zen, still waiting for that apology. You know, your statement that Bush lied about the weapons of Mass Destruction. ”

    Your words….”Give us a link showing that the Democrats claimed to have verified Bush’s lies to be the truth, and I’ll reconsider my opinion of you.”

    Fact is, not only was it validated by Democrats, they actually were the first to state Saddam had these weapons. Including President Clinton, VP Gore, their National Security Advisor and the current and former Secretaries of State. This was all before Bush even became president.

    So they are the ones who lied to Bush, he made to mistake of believing them I guess.

    Here are just a few. No need to look them up, I will provide them for you.

    “If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”

    President Clinton,
    Feb. 17, 1998

    “He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.”

    Sandy Berger,
    Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

    “We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.Constitution and
    Laws, to take necessary actions, (including, if appropriate,
air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction
programs.

    “
Letter to
    President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and
    others Oct. 9, 1998

    “Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”

    
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

    “We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his
    country.”


    Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    “We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass
    destruction.”


    Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002-

    “I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force–
    if necessary– to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our
    security.”

    
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

    (Now Secretary of State)

    “In the fouryears since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein
    has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological
weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program.
He has also given aid, comfort,
    and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his
    capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”

    Sen. Hillary Clinton
    (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

    Not to mention the video footage of 300,000 plus Kurds Saddam based in Northern Iraq, including women and children Or is gas not a chemical weapon?

    So Bush lied? It seems all the Democratic leadership lied as well, including the current and former Democratic Secretaries of State. (Clinton and Kerry).

    The facts speak for themselves. The words were spoken by both political parties. They are on the record.

    • Zen Grouch

      You freakin’ moron you…

      Clinton was talking about the WMD’s we KNEW Saddam had.

      You know how we knew about THOSE weapons?

      Cheney sold them to Saddam when Bush Daddy was in the White House.

      Remember… the SOB who should have died in prison for interfering with the hostage situation in Iran along with Ronnie “Pooped my Pants” RayGun?

      Dang, I’m sorry… you were lookin’ for an apology…

      • formerlorainresident

        I am really trying to understand this.

        This is all very confusing.

        Saddam was given WMD’s by George H. Bush, but you claim he did not have WMD’s. What did he do with them? Not the kind of thing you can put out at the curb for the garbage man to pick up.

        Maybe he just misplaced them. Forgot where it put them, kind of like misplacing your cell phone.

        So you are saying Saddam did have them, but when George W. Bush said so, he was lying.

        Ahhh…he probably used them all when he gassed his own people, the Kurds, as retribution for losing the Gulf War.

        Now I get it, he had WMD’s, but used them all up, which made Bush a liar when he thought there may still be a few lying around. Makes perfect sense to me.

        That’s for the clarification. I feel so enlightened.

        • Zen Grouch

          **Saddam was given WMD’s by George H. Bush, but you claim he did not have WMD’s.**

          It’s called a timeline…

          …look it up.

          Or don’t. I doubt you got the smarts to process the info.

        • It has to stop

          Ask some of the special forces on the ground in Iraq if they felt there were WMD’S after seeing countless instances where Saddam had used them against his own people. May not have found them but it’s a pretty big frigging desert over there.

      • Willie Jenkins

        Some people will believe what they are told instead of using common sense. The bush family has been lying since Prescott Bush and I.G. Farben were supplying oil for Germany while we were at war with them. Essentially funding both sides of the war. They create enemies to conquer land and riches. They will continue to tell people misleading details and fill youtube with propaganda. As long as people believe whatever they are told. They will continue to tell you whatever you want to hear. Some people must be ignored.

  • brenda

    People can say what they like. Assume what they want. It really doesn’t matter. A youngman life was snatched from him and three other’s lives are taken as well. Four families are in complete turmoil, over something that should have never happened . Four families are completely turned upside down. Praying for you all. God bless.

  • Larry Muntz

    Ya know all these thugs over there in ghetto land can kill each other off, I could care less. Black, white no difference,if your a dirtbag and a thug just kill off all of each other then sooner or later the world might be a better place.

    • Willie Jenkins

      Let’s kill all the parent and school shooting thugs also. While were at it wipe out the molesting teachers ,and catholic diocese priests…white or black.

      • formerlorainresident

        Most of the school shooters and parent killers kill themselves. We don’t have to do it for them. They should all be removed from society, white, black or purple. Murder is murder, and all who commit it must be punished in the harshest manner. This is not a racial issue, this is a societal issue.

      • Larry Muntz

        not talking about priests, teachers, or theater and xchool shooters, I was talking about druggies and criminals killing each other, you know like they do almost every day in the hood. WILLIE

        • Willie Jenkins

          I was speaking about those topics. I like 90% of this thread expressed my opinion with a hint of sarcasm. I actually enjoy your comments for the most part. I don’t think any sane person without an agenda enjoys these type of stories. That does not change the fact that this thread is doused in racism ,and crime is color blind. I don’t even want to open up the Pandora box of which race is more evil. That is because no one can definitely factually answer that. Some stories hit the media while others don’t. I know welfare slobs on section 8 in N. Ridgeville, Amherst, and Avon. It is not only a hood issue ,or a non white issue. With that being said Elyria does need a makeover. Which is why I don’t live there. It is a small percentage in comparison to the responsible hard working citizens of Elyria. I think you need to stop being so spiteful. I am an educated man ,and know when someone is being sincere ,or stirring up controversy from behind closed doors. If you really feel that sincere about the plight of the hood. You should get up ,and go the problem areas. Speak aloud in the hood about your concerns. LARRY

          • Kelvin Gray

            2 thumbs up.

  • DonMega

    Comb there hair then give them life in prison.

  • brenda

    It doesn’t matter if you are blck, or white! Death is dead! Killing is murder! You can be orange with bright purple dots! You guy’s have gone so far back in history it’s ridiculous! No one can be blamed but the people who are committing the crimes. Not their parents. Not their teachers, not their brother, uncle,sister’s husband. And oh yeah especially if you were brought up in an conservative household! So can we please stop and let these families grieve. DAMN! Is that conservative enough for you!!

    • formerlorainresident

      I think one thing we all seem to agree on here is the need to address crime, whether it be in suburbia, or the inner city. We all seem to also agree that a person needs to be held accountable for their actions.
      It is not a black/white issue, it is a human issue which has been a plague on our society since the beginning of mankind.

      Fact is, most black on black crime exist in the cities, because that is who lives in the cities. Kinda tough to kill a white person, when all you neighbors are black. Same thing in the suburbs. Whites commit crimes against whites, because that is who they are surrounded by. Really is not that difficult to understand.

      So what do we do? We have another dead man, and three young scumbags who committed the crime. My guess is we will soon forget about this as soon as another similar incident hits the front page.

      I honestly think whites do care about blacks, blacks about whites. I am white, some of my best friends are black; friends I have had since elementary school growing up in South Lorain.

      What I do not agree with is when someone blames others for their actions. This is nothing more than a cop out. I also do not think the current administration has done enough to address this situation. What a better opportunity than for a black president to speak to it every chance he has, instead it is completely ignore. When Trayvon Martin was shot, it was worthy of a speech by the President from the Rose Garden. When it is black on black, or white on white crime, it is ignored.

      This is not a political comment, but what I see as a missed opportunity to help the youth of this country lead a better life. I simply do not see any effort being put forth to help our youth, rather we continue to be a divided nation, more so than ever before.

      We all have our political differences and opinions, which makes this the greatest country on earth.At times they will divide us, at times unite us.

      Many on here want to blame politicians and others for what is certainly a tragedy. I am guilty of this at times as well. I personally do not think entitlements and government handouts will ever get us out of this cycle, history has proven this to be true. So I align myself with politicians who fell the same way; whether Republic, Democrat or Independents. Whether black, white or hispanic. I am not myopic enough to follow one political party, but rather I look at their positions and records on all the issues. Sometimes I vote republican, other times democrat.

      I don’t have the answers, but I do know these people must be removed from the streets to protect those of us who live honest lives. Punishment must be swift and severe.

      Yes, some whites will cheer because four more blacks will be taken off the streets, one dead. I am not one of those. I will cheer when young people take responsibility for their actions, stop blaming others, stop having children at the age of 15yo that they cannot raise and leave it up to the government and taxpayers to do so. Having grown up on the streets myself, I can tell you it is possible.

      I just think any policies which promote dependence on the government serve only the politicians handing them out, at the expense of the very people they claim they are helping. This is both disingenuous and dishonest. This only serves to encourage irresponsible behaviors, and enables people to ignore personal accountability.

      With those thoughts, I am out of here. You don’t have to agree, but thanks for reading.

      I wish everyone peace and happiness in the New Year!

  • ekwaykway

    Unless this victim was killed in a political assassination, this message board is nuts!

  • Deans Auto

    X Box, X Box one, Gears of War, Grand Theft Auto, and all the other violent video games. The shooter in Newtown was an avid player. Lets see, I turn on the TV, I have to turn it down, why is that? because on network TV, I hear screaming as people get shot, murdered, cut up, under a sheet, being tortured by paranormal forces, criminals etc are screaming BLOODY MURDER…its in the background of our homes whether we live in a Section 8 home or a 400K home, its on network TV, HBO, and when we are sick of that we can tune in violent movies on your X Box or Netflix. Wait, just wait, the NEXT generation of kids will be even more violent. Less time with your kids and more TV, X-Box equals kids who are sensitized against violence. Hey let the good times roll. Think about this..if you play classical or new age type music everyone in house relaxes, right? Keep watching shows with your babies that include murders, rapes etc..because they dont know whats going on anyway, right? well, they hear the screams, Dont play X box with your toddler in the room, TURN IT OFF, White Black or any other race,,,go to more parks, spend time with your kids, go to the zoo..disconnect with the media. Children learn what they live. Want less violence in society, watch less violence. Live in peace. Spending time with kids in priceless. Love your children. Tell them you love them. Help their friends and know their friends. Laugh with your children. Doesnt take money to spread LOVE instead of HATE..only time and EFFORT.

  • formerlorainresident

    To Kelvin Gray,

    Your comments from above:

    “I don’t think that I’ve ever stated my race nor color. …….My daughter’s mother is part German, part Puerto Rican and part Black”

    You don’t have to state your race, because I know you. You are an African American. I believe you graduated from EHS around 1989.

    Two questions:

    1. The daughter you refer to above, is she the one that you owed back child support on? Weren’t you ordered to pay by the courts? Were you not a deadbeat dad?

    2. If I recall, you were also charged with Gross Sexual Imposition, Felonious assault , Criminal Trespassing and other crimes. You were indicted on at least a couple of these charges. Did you serve anytime, or did you receive a “slap on the wrist?”

    Hmmmm…..no wonder you are so angry. Were your crimes black on black, since your daughter’s mother was only “part black?” Or were they black on German or Puerto Rican?

    Looks like the pot calling the kettle black on this one. You my friend were part of the problem. A father out of wedlock who did not support his child, until ordered by the courts to do so?

    No wondered you become so upset when anyone on here states it is all about taking personal responsibility and accountability. It seems you have a record of no doing so yourself.

    So tell us, is this the same Kelvin Gray I remember?

    • formerlorainresident

      Kelvin,

      Your silence is “deafening!”

      • Kelvin Gray

        Hold on tight now. I have to get the computer fired up here. Because I don’t the phone is gonna work for me here. Will be right back with you pal.

      • Kelvin Gray

        WOW!!! Son of gun. Somehow or another my comments didn’t show up. :( I guess the Chronicle wasn’t happy with what I said this time.

      • Kelvin Gray

        Work buddy, work. Ever heard that? I have something else better to do rather hang out on here all day. You stalker. :) And yes I think so, because why else would you be following me on here. And just me, no one else. Then looking up my information? Was it ONLY to try and embarrass me? Well explain that to someone of higher authority.

    • Kelvin Gray

      I never said that I was angry, you did. But I appreciate it. To go back through all that mess, the Chronicle won’t allow me to as I’ve seen. But it’s cool. Because you can’t seem to come up with anything about me that is untrue yet? Though the level of truth is really what’s in question. But hey you’re just stating what’s on the internet and the internet never lies so I’ve been told.

      To be honest with you, you may THINK THAT YOU KNOW ME, but don’t fool yourself. That was 25yrs ago, trust me, you don’t know me. But yeah, I’m Kelvin Gray. I’m an American from the state of Ohio. But if you knew me, like really knew me, then you would know that I’m also the infamously known Buzz Gray too. But yet again that was a different time in life. And the editors won’t allow me to properly introduce myself to you the way I want to. And I mean the REAL editors, not attention seeking, fake name posting people like yourself on here. Believe me I tried…but they deleted it.

      I’ll see if I can say this much and get away with it. I’ve done way more in my lifetime than you have listed there. But by the mercy & grace of God I’ve never stepped 1 foot into a prison. I’ve never been on probation, and I’ve never been convicted of a crime. The charges you choose to bring up, which you are missing quite a few, were dismissed. But you should’ve known that too.

      And yes I pay child support. Just like many of my associates & coworkes.

      And contrary to your perception, I’ve never put my hands on any woman that I’ve dated. So I guess the answer to that statement would be….. But if you knew me so well, which you would already know that and this, I don’t condone any man putting his hands on a woman. Never have. But the people who actually know me, not of me, know that too. So I don’t think I need to openly explain anything else any further. If you have anymore questions sir, feel free to address them to the internet at anytime. Because I Google myself all the time. And after that mix up a few years ago when the courts mixed up a traffic citation with another young man’s criminal record, I can’t help but laugh. Because he is 15yrs my junior. But I am not embarrasses nor ashamed of the things that I done in the past. So you can’t embarrass me with the past. And if you really truly knew who I am, then you would know that I am a man of God. Not who you THINK I AM.

      So good day to you sir. Just remember that I am what I am. And I’ve stated more than once what I am.

      So you good?

      • formerlorainresident

        Okay. Time to call a truce.. Peace brother.

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